Log Mac Meeting 1 August 2007

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[2007-08-01 14::02:54] annimar: hi, is the porting team meeting going to take place here?

[2007-08-01 14::03:37] cloph: Yes, that's the place

[2007-08-01 14::05:26] annimar: cloph: ah, okay, just wanted to listen to what I'm used to read for a while. :-)

[2007-08-01 14::05:59] cloph: Not sure whether there is really a meeting since it's holiday season....

[2007-08-01 14::06:55] PhilippL: Actually we're 7 minutes overdue ...

[2007-08-01 14::09:00] cloph: Yes, that's what makes me wonder whether the meeting takes place today...

[2007-08-01 14::09:10] cloph: The agenda is mostly empty as well

[2007-08-01 14::09:44] cloph: The only points are the two default ones )welcome new devs, latest aqua news) and aquavcl02 integration plan.

[2007-08-01 14::10:08] cloph: I added a point wrt configure flags yesterday, but that's about it :-)

[2007-08-01 14::11:06] cloph: Eric added the integration plan item, but he's not present

[2007-08-01 14::12:47] PhilippL: Eric won't be here, he's on vacation.

[2007-08-01 14::12:59] PhilippL: pavel says, he'll be back in the evening.

[2007-08-01 14::16:03] cloph: Who else besides us three is not a ghost currently? shaunmcdonald maybe?

[2007-08-01 14::16:55] cremlae: cloph: I'd like to think that I'm not a ghost :)

[2007-08-01 14::17:34] cloph: :-)

[2007-08-01 14::19:40] PhilippL: as for aquavcl02, I'd switch it to RfQ now, but I can't since pavel is the owner.

[2007-08-01 14::21:27] PhilippL: So anyway any new developers here today ?

[2007-08-01 14::22:53] » You have returned from away.

[2007-08-01 14::23:51] annimar: I'm no developer, but I'm new here! :-)

[2007-08-01 14::23:55] shaunmcdonald: cloph: I'm back

[2007-08-01 14::24:46] shaunmcdonald: annimar: ok, what's your background then? You might want to be a tester, and we're happy to hear about testers as they are very important :-)

[2007-08-01 14::27:16] shaunmcdonald: annimar: what's your name, where are you in the world, and what do you work as?

[2007-08-01 14::29:38] annimar: My name is Martin and I live in Germany.

[2007-08-01 14::30:13] annimar: I already tested every release of OOo Aqua since Alpha 1. It's been quite stable so far...

[2007-08-01 14::30:24] shaunmcdonald: 8)

[2007-08-01 14::30:36] shaunmcdonald: someone else from Germany :-)

[2007-08-01 14::30:47] annimar: I'm an experienced localizer for the Mac, though.

[2007-08-01 14::31:17] shaunmcdonald: annimar: you'll find that ooo localisation is very different to that on the Mac

[2007-08-01 14::31:31] annimar: I did the German localizations of Nisus Writer Pro, OmniOutliner (before it was commercially relocalized), most of the apps from Kavasoft (iConquer, iTunes Catalog)...

[2007-08-01 14::31:54] annimar: shaunmcdonald: That's unfortunately true.

[2007-08-01 14::34:00] PhilippL: not so unfortunate. We could use Apple's localization tooling, but I guess they won't port it to Windows and Linux soon ;-)

[2007-08-01 14::35:50] shaunmcdonald: PhilippL: I'm hoping to get some technical support to spec and implement cross-platform language packs

[2007-08-01 14::36:11] shaunmcdonald: PhilippL: unfortunately I don't know how to go around doing so

[2007-08-01 14::36:25] PhilippL: shaunmcdonald: I don't quite see yet how that goes together with native installers.

[2007-08-01 14::36:58] shaunmcdonald: PhilippL: it has nothing to do with native installers

[2007-08-01 14::37:23] cloph: shaunmcdonald: But how would you install the languagepack then?

[2007-08-01 14::37:40] shaunmcdonald: PhilippL: the idea is to not need to recompile the language pack on each platform

[2007-08-01 14::38:07] shaunmcdonald: PhilippL: the same way that you do for .oxt extensions, where the extension is a file type

[2007-08-01 14::38:51] shaunmcdonald: in this case there would be a file/archive for example de.ooolangpack or de.olp

[2007-08-01 14::39:16] PhilippL: shaunmcdonald: so you don't install them native but in OOo, I see.

[2007-08-01 14::39:21] shaunmcdonald: the user would double click it and ooo would open asking the user if they want to install the lang pack

[2007-08-01 14::39:27] annimar: brb

[2007-08-01 14::39:56] shaunmcdonald: PhilippL: that's the only way to make them completely platform independent

[2007-08-01 14::40:17] shaunmcdonald: PhilippL: I am willing to open up the discussion on other possible methods

[2007-08-01 14::41:28] PhilippL: shaunmcdonald: what about simply making them an extension ?

[2007-08-01 14::42:19] shaunmcdonald: that would be an option

[2007-08-01 14::43:19] shaunmcdonald: though how would you derifitientate between a lang pack extension and an extension which has code

[2007-08-01 14::43:31] PhilippL: shaunmcdonald: why would I want to ?

[2007-08-01 14::44:30] brandelune: Sorry to jump in without notice

[2007-08-01 14::44:33] shaunmcdonald: there is currently talk on the extensions list and they don't seem to like the idea of having extensions which have code for multiple platforms or languages in them

[2007-08-01 14::44:38] brandelune: I am French and I live in Japan

[2007-08-01 14::44:55] brandelune: I've discussed the localisation a little bit with Eric a few days ago

[2007-08-01 14::45:18] brandelune: I presented the latest alpha at the Kyoto Open Source Conference a few days ago

[2007-08-01 14::45:27] shaunmcdonald: PhilippL: maybe we don't need to, or it could be done within the extension meta data inside the archive

[2007-08-01 14::45:48] shaunmcdonald: brandelune: what was the response like?

[2007-08-01 14::46:11] brandelune: very good of course, they are all waiting for native input system support.

[2007-08-01 14::46:32] brandelune: right now they (we) are stuck with NO because normal users won't install stuff on X11

[2007-08-01 14::47:14] brandelune: regarding the localization proper I am not sure what the issues are now (process ? packaging ?)

[2007-08-01 14::47:20] PhilippL: I'd hope to solve that with the cocoa migration.

[2007-08-01 14::48:06] brandelune: I am a professional translator, but I don't do a lot of localization proper, mostly FOSS related stuff

[2007-08-01 14::48:06] shaunmcdonald: brandelune: the current issue is that the language packs need to be generated for each platform induvidually

[2007-08-01 14::48:29] brandelune: that is what I got from my exchange with Eric

[2007-08-01 14::48:37] brandelune: not the Mac way definitely...

[2007-08-01 14::49:11] brandelune: but would it be possible to put that as lproj packages in OOo/Mac ?

[2007-08-01 14::50:08] brandelune: It would be a win win situation for users as well as distributing servers: only one big(ger) package to serve for all the localizations

[2007-08-01 14::50:18] brandelune: Apple does that all the time for its apps

[2007-08-01 14::51:01] shaunmcdonald: brandelune: ooo currently doesn't support the lproj

[2007-08-01 14::51:15] brandelune: I know that :)

[2007-08-01 14::51:27] shaunmcdonald: brandelune: also a lot of people end up stripping the other langs to save space

[2007-08-01 14::51:45] shaunmcdonald: brandelune: we also have to think about the other ooo platforms

[2007-08-01 14::52:00] PhilippL: These are 2 points: having all languages in one packages and the resource format itself.

[2007-08-01 14::52:16] PhilippL: moving to lproj does not really gain us anything, does it ?

[2007-08-01 14::52:53] shaunmcdonald: PhilippL: the lproj is platform specific

[2007-08-01 14::53:27] PhilippL: shaunmcdonald: I know. It would be just a replacement for String( const ResId& ).

[2007-08-01 14::53:35] brandelune: shaunmcdonald: but as long as you do cocoa you are ound to work with nibs isn't it ?

[2007-08-01 14::53:51] shaunmcdonald: does the localisation stuff get used by other apps in Mac OS X?

[2007-08-01 14::54:02] brandelune: like ?

[2007-08-01 14::54:13] shaunmcdonald: Spotlight, Finder?

[2007-08-01 14::54:22] brandelune: an app's lproj sharing with another app ?

[2007-08-01 14::54:33] brandelune: I don't think so.

[2007-08-01 14::54:33] shaunmcdonald: possibly version string

[2007-08-01 14::54:38] PhilippL: sadly there does not really seem to be a way around a nib with cocoa, yes. (see http://lapcatsoftware.com/blog/2007/05/16/working-without-a-nib-part-1/ )

[2007-08-01 14::59:04] » ybart2 joined the chat room.

[2007-08-01 15::00:22] shaunmcdonald: PhilippL: very interesting link :-)

[2007-08-01 15::02:39] shaunmcdonald: is sure there is a far better localisation method than the current one

[2007-08-01 15::03:05] PhilippL: shaunmcdonald: sure. We just need one that is cross platform.

[2007-08-01 15::05:19] shaunmcdonald: I think that's what everyone agrees on just now :-)

[2007-08-01 15::05:25] shaunmcdonald: lets move on

[2007-08-01 15::05:26] shaunmcdonald: 3. aquavcl02 integration plan

[2007-08-01 15::06:18] shaunmcdonald: I think we are now on to the testing phase of this CWS

[2007-08-01 15::06:38] shaunmcdonald: especially the other platforms

[2007-08-01 15::07:46] PhilippL: shaunmcdonald: the platform testing has started, wg has volunteered as our QA rep.

[2007-08-01 15::08:03] PhilippL: we should set aquavcl02 to Ready for QA.

[2007-08-01 15::09:19] shaunmcdonald: PhilippL: of course it should be set to RfQA

[2007-08-01 15::14:05] shaunmcdonald: PhilippL: so all new code is going into aquavcl03, which is mainly for the cocoa transition?

[2007-08-01 15::14:24] cloph: shaunmcdonald: No, I wouldn't say so.

[2007-08-01 15::14:39] PhilippL: shaunmcdonald: That's the general idea. However that transition has its problems yet.

[2007-08-01 15::14:39] cloph: Depends on the scope of your work.

[2007-08-01 15::15:13] PhilippL: I correct myself, changes to the vcl aqua part should go to aquavcl03.

[2007-08-01 15::15:33] shaunmcdonald: ok, lets clarify what goes into aquavcl03, and what goes into some other CWS

[2007-08-01 15::16:14] PhilippL: If it's outside vcl, it can have its own CWS (e.g. Drag and Drop service, filepicker, whatever)

[2007-08-01 15::16:31] cloph: s/can/should/ :-)

[2007-08-01 15::16:48] PhilippL: If it is new functionality it makes sense to put it into aquavcl03 if you would develop it in Carbon else.

[2007-08-01 15::17:11] » ybart left the chat room.

[2007-08-01 15::17:13] PhilippL: We should prevent doing everything in carbon and then migrate it afterwards.

[2007-08-01 15::18:00] shaunmcdonald: that sounds pretty clear to me :-)

[2007-08-01 15::18:20] shaunmcdonald: next up

[2007-08-01 15::18:21] shaunmcdonald: 4. default configure flags - disable nas for Mac by default, enable system curl, libxml or others? ...

[2007-08-01 15::18:29] PhilippL: There is one area though that needs carbon still.

[2007-08-01 15::18:46] PhilippL: that is NWF, since the HIThemeDraw* mehtods don't have a cocoa equivalent.

[2007-08-01 15::19:45] PhilippL: Is there a system curl and libxml ?

[2007-08-01 15::20:31] cloph: PhilippL: Yes, there is (at least on my Tiger)

[2007-08-01 15::20:53] PhilippL: hmm, is it from tiger or from fink ?

[2007-08-01 15::21:08] cloph: and it is listed in the 10.3.9 SDK as well, so should have been in Panther already as well.

[2007-08-01 15::21:24] PhilippL: ok, forget the question :-)

[2007-08-01 15::22:25] cloph: No, definitely not from fink (would put stuff in /sw) - if not part of the default installation, then it would be installed via XCode (but then it wouldn't appear in the SDK from my understanding) :-)

[2007-08-01 15::22:45] cloph: nas is useless on any system.

[2007-08-01 15::23:40] cloph: And all Mac installations are more or less equal, I thought of enabling some of the system stuff by default.

[2007-08-01 15::23:57] PhilippL: seems reasonable to me.

[2007-08-01 15::24:23] cloph: freetype could be taken from the system as well (comes with X11) - since the aqua version doesn't need it anymore

[2007-08-01 15::25:35] cloph: I'm not sure though how to actually change the defaults.

[2007-08-01 15::26:03] cloph: Either by adding a --with-mac-systemstuff or similar, or by changing the values of the options themselves.

[2007-08-01 15::26:56] cloph: the second one doesn't seem ideal to me, since one would have to add "Defaults to system version for Mac" on every of the affected --with-system options.

[2007-08-01 15::28:30] shaunmcdonald: cloph: if the freetype come with X11, then it cannot be on by default for the X11 version

[2007-08-01 15::28:46] shaunmcdonald: s/X11 version/aqua version

[2007-08-01 15::28:47] cloph: ? Why not?

[2007-08-01 15::29:07] cloph: shaunmcdonald: see above: Aqua doesn't need libfreetype anymore (that is what Pavel told me)

[2007-08-01 15::30:10] shaunmcdonald: cloph: in that case it should work, as long as freetype isn't mentioned anywhere in the aqua version

[2007-08-01 15::31:49] cloph: shaunmcdonald: I'm now seeking for feedback/opinions on how to change the defaults

[2007-08-01 15::32:36] shaunmcdonald: you could change the defaults based on platform and aqua/x11 build?

[2007-08-01 15::33:23] cloph: The problem is the output of ./configure --help

[2007-08-01 15::33:43] cloph: --enable-foo means: it is disabled by default, if you want to enable it, you need to secify the option

[2007-08-01 15::34:02] cloph: Similar to --with-system-foo - if you want the system version, you have to specify it.

[2007-08-01 15::34:21] shaunmcdonald: ah, so to enable something on one platform means it has to be enabled on all platforms?

[2007-08-01 15::34:42] cloph: If I change the default of these options for mac, then it would mean.

[2007-08-01 15::34:42] cloph: --enable-foo : for every system but mac this means you have to specify the flag, for the Mac it defaults to be enabled...

[2007-08-01 15::34:51] PhilippL: I always thought that who says our build system is too complicated hasn't seen configure yet.

[2007-08-01 15::35:07] cloph: shaunmcdonald: No, it doesn't have to be enabled, but it gets inconsistent.

[2007-08-01 15::36:16] cloph: "--disable-nas" means: to disable it, you have to specify it. So when a Mac builder doesn't specify it, she can expect to get a build with nas enabled.

[2007-08-01 15::36:48] cloph: But when I change the default to disable nas, she would have to explicitly add --enable-nas to her configure line. And that's not obvious at all.

[2007-08-01 15::37:43] cloph: That's why I thought of something like --with-mac-defaults - in its description one could say: This options disables nas, turns on system-curl,.....

[2007-08-01 15::38:06] shaunmcdonald: cloph: I think that would be the easiest workaround

[2007-08-01 15::38:19] cloph: But then this is one step in turning configure to some ooo-build like tool with thousands of special cases for each and every distro...

[2007-08-01 15::38:34] » sky joined the chat room.

[2007-08-01 15::38:35] » ybart3 joined the chat room.

[2007-08-01 15::38:41] shaunmcdonald: cloph: probably best to send a mail to the mailing list, and see what hte response is

[2007-08-01 15::38:51] PhilippL: cloph: As if itweren't already ?

[2007-08-01 15::39:02] shaunmcdonald: cloph: but if it makes it easier to compile ooo on each platform, then why not?

[2007-08-01 15::41:27] cloph: PhilippL: There are no distro-specific flags in configure - most of the switches are included because of one or more distros want/need the switch, but apart from that the switches are valid for any distro

[2007-08-01 15::42:33] PhilippL: cloph: ok, if you see it that way :-)

[2007-08-01 15::42:59] cloph: :-)

[2007-08-01 15::47:49] cloph: Did anybody try to compile or run OOo on (Open) Darwin?

[2007-08-01 15::48:12] PhilippL: Not me.

[2007-08-01 15::50:03] PhilippL: So anything left on our agenda ?

[2007-08-01 15::50:34] cloph: only if somebody added a topic after the meeting has started :-)

[2007-08-01 15::50:49] PhilippL: Then let's call it concluded ?

[2007-08-01 15::53:50] cloph: +1

[2007-08-01 15::55:50] » ybart2 left the chat room.

[2007-08-01 15::55:54] PhilippL: Oh, one thing, I won't be there on the next meeting. However hdu will be here again.

[2007-08-01 15::57:33] shaunmcdonald: the next meeting is in a fortnight

[2007-08-01 15::58:00] » You changed the topic to "[English]OpenOffice.org Mac porting team channel. Next IRC Meeting:Wednesday 15th August 2007 (*13*:00 UTC) See http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/MacOSXPortMeetings for the agenda. Previous meetings logs are available at http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Previous_Mac_Meeting_logs | http://www.openoffice.org/issues/buglist.cgi?keywords=aqua | http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Summer_of_Code_200".