Log Mac Meeting February 20th 2008
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[14:00] <PhilippL> ericb2: pong
[14:00] <PhilippL> Meeting ?
[14:00] <PhilippL> 1. Welcome new devs joining Mac OS X port
[14:01] <PhilippL> anybody new ?
[14:01] * Dyrcona raises hand.
[14:01] <PhilippL> Welcome Dyrcona !
[14:01] <ericb2> lot of new names in the list ^^
[14:01] <PhilippL> Would you tell us a little about yourself ?
[14:01] * JoergB is back (gone 02:33:28)
[14:01] <Dyrcona> Sure.
[14:01] <ericb2> newcomer use to present themselves shortly ;)
[14:02] <ericb2> PhilippL: in fact, my ping was about an issue with menus and start center
[14:02] <Dyrcona> I have a lot of programming experience an recently started using OOo.
[14:02] <Dyrcona> I hope to be able to help with the Mac port and Cocoa integration in particular.
[14:02] <ericb2> Dyrcona: that's nice
[14:02] <PhilippL> Dyrcona: very good, we can always use more developement power.
[14:03] <Dyrcona> I built SRC60_m245 recently and noticed some things.
[14:04] <ericb2> Dyrcona: from where are you exactly ? USA ?
[14:04] <Dyrcona> I'm from the USA, Massachusetts.
[14:04] <ericb2> Dyrcona: not too early for you ?
[14:05] <Dyrcona> It's 8:00 a.m. I have to be at work by 9:00, but it takes me 10 to 20 minutes to get there.
[14:05] <ericb2> Dyrcona: perfect timing :-)
[14:06] <Dyrcona> yes. not sure how often i'll be able to make the weekly meetings, but i'll certainly try.
[14:06] <PhilippL> Dyrcona: is there any particular problem you would be interested in ?
[14:06] <ericb2> Dyrcona: anyway, there is someone present on the channel until late in the night ;-)
[14:07] <Dyrcona> i'll have to look at the code a bit more. I noticed some issues with copy and paste, particularly in calc, but that was in a carbon build. not sure if it persists in cocoa.
[14:08] <Dyrcona> i haven't actually tried the cocoa build yet, because i wasn't sure if i should be looking at SRC680_m245 or something else.
[14:09] <PhilippL> Dyrcona: for copy&paste things change in SRC680m248 where the cocoa migration of clipboard and D&D is integrated.
[14:10] <Dyrcona> ok. I'll check that out later today.
[14:10] <PhilippL> Oh, and m248 is not yet ready, I should expect it today or tomorrow.
[14:10] <Dyrcona> ok.
[14:10] <PhilippL> The avaiability will be announced on the ususal mailing lists.
[14:11] <ericb2> Dyrcona: and for DnD and C&P , tinor is the one to ask
[14:11] <Dyrcona> k
[14:12] <PhilippL> Any other new faces ?
[14:14] <PhilippL> Ok then let's proceed with
[14:14] <PhilippL> 2. Current state of the open CWS's
[14:14] <PhilippL> aquavcl05 is finally ready for QA.
[14:15] <ericb2> PhilippL: good :-)
[14:15] <PhilippL> Took a little longer because of the StartCenter that started as a Mac only project but is now cross platform.
[14:15] <ericb2> PhilippL: I just have found an issue with Start Centrer
[14:15] <ericb2> Center
[14:15] <PhilippL> No, you have found an issue with quickstarter :-)
[14:15] <ericb2> PhilippL: but maybe you fixed it in meantime ?
[14:16] <ericb2> PhilippL: ah, ok :-) I traced salmenu unsuccessfully, and maybe it was the reason
[14:16] <PhilippL> Assuming you talk about the menu issue, then no I haven't fixed it yet. I have only seen it once and therefore do not know what goes wrong yet.
[14:16] <ericb2> PhilippL: .. because of the empty menus
[14:16] <ericb2> PhilippL: I traced a bit, and we could discuss the point later ?
[14:17] <PhilippL> I think someone does not clean up the menu completely sometimes, but we have to see.
[14:17] <PhilippL> ericb2: yes, of course.
[14:18] <ericb2> PhilippL: other cws close to RfQA are :
[14:18] <ericb2> aquafilepicker02 , pdffix02 and nativeprintdlg01
[14:19] <ericb2> PhilippL: what is aquafilepicker02 state ?
[14:19] <PhilippL> aquafilepicker is Ready for QA.
[14:19] <ericb2> PhilippL: pdffix02 ?
[14:20] <PhilippL> pdffix02 I don't know. I think it's not ready, but that is hdu's baby.
[14:20] <PhilippL> Unfortunately he cannot be here today.
[14:20] <ericb2> PhilippL: Ok. then I'd like to discuss about nativeprintdlg01, because I'm confused with what has to be done ..
[14:21] <PhilippL> I'm not quite sure either.
[14:21] <PhilippL> I invited ssa, but he's not here yet.
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[14:22] <PhilippL> However my mnimal idea is to invent a second checkbox in Tool->Options->General to make the native print dialog be configurable separately from the file picker.
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[14:22] <PhilippL> That way people who need the OOo dialog in the meantime can use it while most people probably want to use the native dialog.
[14:23] <ericb2> PhilippL: what has exactly to be done ? this cws started since ages, and is postponed regularly
[14:23] <PhilippL> Also we could add an "Options" button to the "File->Printer Settings" dialog that shows the feature missing in the native dialog.
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[14:24] <PhilippL> The third option is to delay the whole thing until we have revamped the whole printing stuff. Which is not the very best solution since this will probably not be in 3.0 timeframe.
[14:25] <ericb2> PhilippL: yes, and I'd be very desappointed ( mac users too )
[14:25] <ericb2> PhilippL: whithout the "user experience " change everything works fine btw
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[14:26] <ericb2> PhilippL: so what can we decide today ?
[14:26] <PhilippL> So I'd vote for a combination of 1 and 2: make the native dialog separately deactivate capable and add the options button in the printer settings dialog.
[14:27] <ericb2> PhilippL: first, about 1 :
[14:27] <ericb2> PhilippL: isn't it already the case ?
[14:27] <ericb2> PhilippL: if so, only 2 has to be added, right ?
[14:28] <PhilippL> it's bound to the same setting as file picker, so you end up with the non native filepicker, too
[14:28] <PhilippL> which is in this case not what we want.
[14:28] <Dyrcona> i just looked. there's only 1 checkbox right now.
[14:28] <ericb2> PhilippL: ah, ok thus, we have to add a new entry in some .xcu ?
[14:29] * ericb2 searching in Bonsai
[14:29] <PhilippL> ericb2: yes
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[14:30] <PhilippL> plus of course a checkbox in the options dialog.
[14:31] <ericb2> curently we search for ...
[14:31] <PhilippL> That is not a large change, so I'd like to have the native dialog s separately as long as the native print dialog is not feature complete.
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[14:31] <ericb2> PhilippL: org.
[14:31] <ericb2> openoffice.Office.Common/Misc
[14:32] <ericb2> PhilippL: can you please summarize what has to be done, and I'll have a look asap
[14:32] <ericb2> PhilippL: or you, if you think you have time
[14:32] <PhilippL> yes somewhere there where the setting for the file picker already is.
[14:33] <ericb2> PhilippL: what I don't know is how do the change for Mac OS X only
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[14:33] <PhilippL> yes, I can do this, however the second change for the Options button is a little more involved, so I'm afraid we won't make it until 6th of march.
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[14:35] <PhilippL> Oh, the configuration setting itself can be platform independent. Howver an #if ! defined QUARTZ has to be made in the tools->options- >general tab page that hides the new checkbox
[14:35] <PhilippL> ugly, but no real way around it .
[14:35] <PhilippL> However that dialog (in svx/source/dialog/opt???.cxx is already platform specific.
[14:36] <ssa> hi everybody! You're already discussing the native print dialog ?
[14:36] <ericb2> PhilippL: you mean 1) can be done now by you, and for 2 .. later ?
[14:36] <PhilippL> ssa: yes
[14:37] <ericb2> ssa: hello Stephan. Exactly :)
[14:37] <PhilippL> ssa: I labeled 1) the checkbox to disable the native dialog, 2) the options button in File->Printer Settings and 3) the print architecture revamp.
[14:37] <ericb2> ssa: what is the exact problem ?
[14:38] <ericb2> ssa: I know thre is a change about all sheets or not all sheets, causing trouble ( everything was fine without it )
[14:38] <PhilippL> The main problem is actually the feature freeze date (and the fact that there are more CWS already than can be QA'ed befor the date)
[14:38] <ericb2> ssa: but maybe I missed something
[14:38] <PhilippL> So maybe we need to do the options button after beta on the way to final.
[14:38] <ssa> i think we have two problems: responsiveness (i.e. speed) for large documents and the lack of application specific print options
[14:39] shaunmcdonald ssa
[14:39] <ericb2> ssa: ?
[14:39] <ssa> and of course the feature freeze date...
[14:39] <ericb2> ssa: I tested a 670 pages pdf , and thre is no big time issue
[14:40] <ericb2> ssa: about the specific print options, what is missing ?
[14:40] <ssa> well, i thought of large documents like the odf spec etc. hitting the print button requires a full print job to be done before any UI appears, right ?
[14:41] <ssa> this is at least irritating
[14:41] <ericb2> ssa: yes, but how many pages do you print in this case ?
[14:41] <ericb2> ssa: this is uncommon task :-)
[14:41] <ssa> depends on the user...
[14:42] <ericb2> ssa: well I asked a lot of tester to verify this issue, and nobody reported such time issue
[14:43] <ericb2> ssa: what is the difference when you print using the OOo dialog ?
[14:43] <ericb2> ssa: the same .odt spec .. etc
[14:43] <ericb2> ?
[14:43] <ssa> anyway, the other issue are the print options that are specific to writer, draw/impress, calc. one idea was to put them into the printer settings dialog
[14:43] <ssa> sorry, back to your question
[14:44] <ericb2> ssa: I tested the native dialog box, and there is no issue : ust Mac way of UI hides all these options by default
[14:44] <ssa> the native dialog appears immediately and it taes only time once you pressed OK
[14:45] <ericb2> ssa: the only issue ( I was wrong in fact) was about notes printing , accessible in Tools -> Options -> Impress -> print
[14:45] <ericb2> ssa: same sort of issue with calc
[14:45] <ericb2> ssa: and Apple layout (number of pages per sheets ..etc ) is imho as good as OOo options
[14:46] <ericb2> it's just hidden by default
[14:46] <ssa> but that's exactly the point, people will not be able to print only their handouts or their notes etc. if we do not offer these options anymore, in writer this is in most cases ok, but not in impress/calc
[14:47] <PhilippL> ericb2: The problem is that Tools->Options->Impress->print ist one of the best hidden locations of the whole OOo
[14:47] <ericb2> PhilippL: I know
[14:47] <ssa> those ooptions are completely different from the system printer options
[14:47] <ericb2> ssa: my last changes forced all sheets to be printed by default
[14:47] <ericb2> ssa: and the end user has to define which one print
[14:47] <ssa> and even if we could ofer them in the print dialog it would require re-generating the whole print job
[14:48] <ericb2> ssa: why did you wait all this time to say that ?
[14:48] <ericb2> ssa: the cws started several months agi
[14:48] <ericb2> ago
[14:48] <ssa> i realized this too late, I'm sorry
[14:49] <PhilippL> FWIW I didn't realize it either and I was involved in that from the beginning.
[14:49] <ssa> i think we still have some options... if it is not to late
[14:49] <ericb2> ssa:so what do you suggest for 3.0 ?
[14:49] <PhilippL> Since most of us tend to print with writer where the problem is not really visible.
[14:50] <ssa> first we could add the application print options to the printer settings dialog - this is still hidden, but not as much as in tools->options, frank from UX team already agreed to that
[14:50] <ericb2> PhilippL ssa : my idea was to propose a development snapshot for testing purpose, including the feature, and wait for feedback / users complaining. If you want, I can propose unofficial build for that
[14:51] <ssa> second we should try to improve the user experience when printing large print jobs, may be by displaying some progress etc. I'm not sure if this already happens (I mean the time between hitting the print button until the dialog appears)
[14:52] <ssa> to get those changes into beta it should be done next week...
[14:52] <ericb2> ssa: I did some tests, and the needed time for 20 sheets does not exceeed 3 or 4 seconds
[14:52] <ssa> s/should/must/
[14:53] <ssa> depending on the system and the complexity of the document...
[14:53] <ericb2> ssa: that's the reason why we need feedback
[14:54] <ericb2> ssa: end user will multiply the tests
[14:54] <ssa> PhilippL: do you see a chance to display some progress while preparing the print job for the dialog ? or is there a page counter or something going on already ?
[14:55] <PhilippL> ssa: theoretically there is already one, the print progress is not disabled.
[14:55] <ericb2> ssa: I'm not PhilippL , and since I did the change, I can answer: In fact, I just have hiden the dialog box used during the preparation
[14:55] <ericb2> ssa: this is one liner
[14:56] <ssa> ericb2: ok! then there is the question: does it look ugly ? should we do something different (i.e. the candy-bar progress or something like this) ?
[14:57] <ericb2> ssa: well, I have hidden this dialog box because Mac users will -imho- cry . Now, I think it should be possible to draw a progress bar instead, but this is -just my opinion- a bit overengineering
[14:58] <ericb2> ssa: the change :http://bonsai.go-oo.org/cvsview2.cgi?diff_mode=context&whitespace_mode=show&subdir=framework/sfx2/source/view&command=DIFF_FRAMESET&file=prnmon.cxx&rev1=1.23&rev2=220.127.116.11&root=/home/ooweb/cvsup
[14:58] <ericb2> sorry for the : at the beginning of the URL
[14:58] >ssa< + this one : http://bonsai.go-oo.org/cvsview2.cgi?diff_mode=context&whitespace_mode=show&subdir=framework/sfx2/source/view&command=DIFF_FRAMESET&file=prnmon.cxx&rev1=18.104.22.168&rev2=22.214.171.124&root=/home/ooweb/cvsup
[14:59] <ssa> I understand, I also do not like this option but I also would like to avoid that after hitting some button you have to wait too long until a dialog appears
[15:02] <ssa> the last option would be to not prepare a print job in advance, which would kill the preview feature in the dialog
[15:02] <PhilippL> that would be the original uno service idea.
[15:03] <ericb2> ssa: yes, but maybe we fail into the first idea
[15:03] <PhilippL> Actually needn't be UNO, but you get the drift.
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[15:04] <ssa> ericb2: you mean displaying the progress ?
[15:04] <ericb2> ssa: no, the original idea: create a new interface in offapi, ..etc
[15:05] <ericb2> implement a service ( UNO ? ) and so on
[15:05] <PhilippL> WHich is ugly since one needs to transfer an undefined binary blob to transport the native print settings including the driver settings.
[15:06] <PhilippL> Better to implement such a thing in vcl directly.
[15:06] <ericb2> PhilippL: only for Aqua ?
[15:06] <PhilippL> However this will not work very well anyway since it kills the preview of the dialog.
[15:07] <ericb2> PhilippL: agreed
[15:08] <ssa> I'm not familiar with this option but how long would it take and what would be the outcome ? would this avoid preparing of the full print job ?
[15:08] <PhilippL> No
[15:09] <PhilippL> The cocoa print system is strictly a pull model.
[15:09] <PhilippL> OOo is push.
[15:09] <PhilippL> In this case we need to buffer everything as a connector.
[15:10] <ericb2> PhilippL: the blob you mentionned ?
[15:10] <PhilippL> The full print job is also used with the OOo dialog at the moment. No real way around it.
[15:10] <PhilippL> ericb2: no, that has nothing to do with dialogs at all.
[15:10] <ericb2> PhilippL: ok
[15:11] <PhilippL> The point is cocoa asks for pages to be printed, whereas OOo's model (like on every other system) is that the applications starts the page, draws it and ends it.
[15:13] <ericb2> what I propose : I can resync nativeprintdlg01 with m248 when out (don't forget I'll be away for FOSDEM this week end )
[15:14] <ericb2> then PhilippL could start some experimentation, and in meantime, I'll ask the end user to concentrate on the print system
[15:14] <PhilippL> I can do that for you, I also can add the tools->options checkbox and the corresponding config entry.
[15:14] <ericb2> PhilippL: ok, thanks a lot
[15:15] <PhilippL> The question is do we try for beta with that or not ?
[15:16] <ericb2> PhilippL: from another side, how many time do we need to implement a new system
[15:16] <PhilippL> Because if we plan for that, I don't see any chances for success unless we're RfQ again on Monday.
[15:16] <PhilippL> Even then it will take some convincing in QA.
[15:16] <ericb2> PhilippL: when is the deadline ?
[15:17] <ericb2> PhilippL: and do we need to write .. hmm .. specs ?
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[15:17] <PhilippL> we need a test plan. The spec can perhaps be delayed until later.
[15:18] <PhilippL> On second thought, no, they will want a preliminary spec at least.
[15:18] <ericb2> PhilippL: that's why I asked
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[15:20] <PhilippL> ssa: so is the checkbox enough ? Can we add the options button to Printer Settings after beta ?
[15:21] <ssa> PhilippL: hmm, not sure, depends on QA, I would add the button anyway it doesn't hurt..
[15:22] <PhilippL> ssa: the button ok, but what about the functionality :-)
[15:25] <ssa> PhilippL: should be the same as in the existing internal print dialog...
[15:25] <PhilippL> I mean I don't know if moving this from the print dialog is all that is needed or if we need to adapt application code, too. Needs to be tested. And I don't know if I can do that till monday.
[15:25] <PhilippL> Well, I can try.
[15:26] <PhilippL> So I do the checkbox first (which is kind of a nobrainer) and then try how far I come with the options button.
[15:26] <PhilippL> agreed ?
[15:26] <ericb2> PhilippL: +1 from me
[15:28] <ssa> PhilippL: +1
[15:28] <PhilippL> Yippieh :-)
[15:28] <PhilippL> Any other CWS to discuss ?
[15:28] <ericb2> I don't think so :)
[15:29] <ericb2> Next point ?
[15:29] <ericb2> (important)
[15:29] <ericb2> 3. Current state of Aqua version.
[15:29] <ericb2> - about stability - What is missing for 3.0
[15:30] <PhilippL> plugins, scanner support come to my mind.
[15:30] <ericb2> PhilippL: security API
[15:30] <PhilippL> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X_Porting_-_Roadmap
[15:31] <ericb2> about aqua and stability, my opinion is: after aquavcl05, macosxdnd and aquafilepicker02, we can consider it is from far as stable as X11 version
[15:31] <PhilippL> Erm, you mean as stable as the X11 version, no ?
[15:32] <ericb2> PhilippL: yes
[15:32] * ericb2 will buy new fingers
[15:32] <ericb2> PhilippL: the question comes from QA
[15:32] <ericb2> PhilippL: is aqua version enough stable to be QA'ed
[15:33] <PhilippL> I don't quite get the question since QA already does work on the version ?
[15:33] <PhilippL> The testtool is running, too ?
[15:33] <ericb2> PhilippL: after aquavcl05 integration, I think so
[15:33] <ericb2> PhilippL: I have seen some recent changes in automation
[15:33] <PhilippL> The smoketest will run with aquavcl05 and smoketest18 integrated.
[15:34] <PhilippL> Those changes make more tests work, yes, but generally the testtool already ran before :-)
[15:34] <ericb2> chicken and egg issue :)
[15:34] <PhilippL> To be sure there still are some open issues with the testtool (e.g. its UI)
[15:35] <ericb2> ok
[15:35] <PhilippL> But there are always issues with it as OOo evolves, so I wouldn't say it does not work on Mac.
[15:35] <ericb2> PhilippL: then what can we answer, to QA people ?
[15:35] <ericb2> PhilippL: ok
[15:35] <PhilippL> answer: Yes
[15:35] <ericb2> PhilippL: sorry ?
[15:35] <ericb2> :-)
[15:36] <ericb2> PhilippL: yes it does work ?
[15:36] <PhilippL> question: is aqua version enough stable to be QA'ed answer: yes
[15:36] <ericb2> PhilippL: clear, thank you :)
[15:36] <PhilippL> If it didn't work I think jsi_sun would get quite vocal.
[15:38] <PhilippL> ok, next point ?
[15:38] <ericb2> ok, last point: I'll try to find support from Apple about security API and Image capture ( suggestions, info about the APIs ..et )
[15:38] <ericb2> you asked just before I hit enter too :)
[15:38] <PhilippL> would be nice !
[15:38] <ericb2> it is mandatory
[15:38] <ericb2> the doc is not very complte
[15:39] <PhilippL> Well, mandatory ? What kind of security are you talking ?
[15:39] <ericb2> PhilippL: the key signing thing
[15:39] <ericb2> PhilippL: if I'm not wrong, jl and obr are listed in the roadmap
[15:40] <PhilippL> Yes.
[15:40] <ericb2> ok, that's all right for me. and I'll have to stop.
[15:41] <ericb2> End of Meeting ?
[15:43] <PhilippL> If no one wishes to discuss anything ?
[15:44] <PhilippL> Ok, then I guess that's it for today.
[15:44] <ssa> yes...
[15:45] <ericb2> fYI, the log of the meeting is : http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Log_Mac_Meeting_February_20th_2008
[15:45] <ericb2> Thanks to all for attending :)