Log Mac Meeting February 18th 2009

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[2009-02-18 15:07:51] <PhilippL> Ok let's start with 1 - Welcome new devs
[2009-02-18 15:07:57] <PhilippL> Anybody new ?
[2009-02-18 15:09:22] <PhilippL> Then let's proceed with 2. improve the shortcuts on Mac OS X (aqua version) 
[2009-02-18 15:10:07] <rvojta_> ok, so, I can start if you don't mind
[2009-02-18 15:10:13] <PhilippL> Yes, please.
[2009-02-18 15:10:31] <rvojta_> we created list of shortcuts [violations] on Mac OS X at
[2009-02-18 15:10:37] <rvojta_> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X_Porting_-_Keyboard_Shortcuts#Mac_OS_X_Shortcuts_.28under_construction.29
[2009-02-18 15:10:49] <rvojta_> it's big list of things to fix
[2009-02-18 15:11:17] <rvojta_> we need to make additional changes to OO.o to make them fixed
[2009-02-18 15:11:36] <rvojta_> 1. I introduced MOD3 support in macshortcuts01
[2009-02-18 15:12:09] <rvojta_> 2. platform specific shortcuts are placed in Accelerators.xcu in officecfg
[2009-02-18 15:12:30] <rvojta_> there's an issue http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=99296
[2009-02-18 15:12:38] <IZBot> issue 99296: framework ENHANCEMENT STARTED P3 Check node/prop/value uniqueness after install:module sorting
[2009-02-18 15:12:41] |<-- amb has left freenode (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[2009-02-18 15:12:50] <rvojta_> Stephan told me that he is going to fix it this week, but no promises, so we have to wait
[2009-02-18 15:13:09] <rvojta_> when this issue will be fixed, we can easily define platform specific shortcuts
[2009-02-18 15:13:19] <rvojta_> it works now, but with some limits, see comments in this issue
[2009-02-18 15:13:48] <rvojta_> some shortcuts are already fixed, I think two, just a proof of concept
[2009-02-18 15:14:14] <rvojta_> I would like to include this CWS in 3.2 when Stephan's issue will be fixed
[2009-02-18 15:14:30] <PhilippL> +1
[2009-02-18 15:14:31] <rvojta_> with few shortcuts, not all of them, remaining shortcuts will be in the next cws
[2009-02-18 15:14:52] <rvojta_> this is first part, what should be done and how to do it
[2009-02-18 15:15:05] <rvojta_> but there are additional shortcuts which needs deeper changes
[2009-02-18 15:15:15] <rvojta_> for example - movement shortcuts
[2009-02-18 15:15:43] <rvojta_>  - according to Apple HIG, we should jump to the end of the current word instead of the beginning of the next word, etc.
[2009-02-18 15:15:50] <rvojta_>  - there are two ways how to fix this
[2009-02-18 15:16:12] <rvojta_> 1. put if in implementation of .uno:jump... (or how it is called) for Mac OS X
[2009-02-18 15:16:21] <rvojta_> 2. introduce new .uno:jump... for Mac OS X
[2009-02-18 15:16:32] <rvojta_> I don't know which one is best
[2009-02-18 15:16:36] <rvojta_> s/best/better/
[2009-02-18 15:16:55] <rvojta_> but this can be decided later, because it's not so important comparing to other shortcuts
[2009-02-18 15:17:12] <rvojta_> next thing is shortcuts with special keys
[2009-02-18 15:17:30] <rvojta_> for example alignment - Cmd + { - left alignment, Cmd + | - center, Cmd + } - right alignment
[2009-02-18 15:18:02] <rvojta_> we have to find some way how to introduce support for these special keys, I didn't find time to look at these special keys for now
[2009-02-18 15:18:08] <PhilippL> I thought that might be an application detail. They might want to change their current behaviour. Of course I don't know if they wouldn't want to keep the current implementation for backwards compatibility with e.g. scripts.
[2009-02-18 15:18:30] <PhilippL> sorry, my last comment was for the word wise positioning.
[2009-02-18 15:18:39] <rvojta_> I understand
[2009-02-18 15:19:04] <rvojta_> but as I said, it can be fixed later, because there are more important shortcuts they don't work
[2009-02-18 15:19:13] <rvojta_> just for the record what should be done
[2009-02-18 15:19:16] <PhilippL> yes
[2009-02-18 15:19:29] <hdu_hh> AFAIK this behaviour is for compatibility with an important legacy app
[2009-02-18 15:19:41] <rvojta_> and the last thing I have is - who's in charge for language specific shortcuts
[2009-02-18 15:19:43] <rvojta_> example
[2009-02-18 15:20:19] <rvojta_> Cmd-T should be display Styles window (F11), but in "de" and "es" languages, it is used for SubScript and AlignHorizontalCenter for example
[2009-02-18 15:20:35] <rvojta_> and if we change F11 to Cmd-T, we need to change Cmd-T too
[2009-02-18 15:21:08] <rvojta_> and additional shortcuts should have alternatives on Mac OS X - for example Writer - http://porting.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=mac&msgNo=7673
[2009-02-18 15:21:31] <rvojta_> I can fix them, but I would like to discuss with someone about alternatives
[2009-02-18 15:21:49] <rvojta_> any idea what's the best place to ask?
[2009-02-18 15:21:58] <rvojta_> I already asked on mac@porting, but no answer until today
[2009-02-18 15:22:12] <rvojta_> (5 days ago)
[2009-02-18 15:22:14] <PhilippL> Traditionally the shortcuts were the domain of user experience -> the discuss@ux list might work.
[2009-02-18 15:22:33] <PhilippL> Also the language specific lists may be a good point to ask.
[2009-02-18 15:23:06] <rvojta_> ok, I'll do this, but if there will be no response, is there someone in Sun who's in charge for shortcuts / UX?
[2009-02-18 15:24:00] <PhilippL> cd_oo: any idea ? I don't really know.
[2009-02-18 15:24:34] <PhilippL> I think the shortcuts were done by whoever designed the feature that the shortcut is for.
[2009-02-18 15:24:52] <cd_oo> I would try to contact UX first and they have to discuss this with language specific lists
[2009-02-18 15:25:28] <cd_oo> Shortcuts are clearly a UX domain.
[2009-02-18 15:25:43] <rvojta_> ok, I'll collect all of them and will ask UX, if there will be no answer, we can discuss this later
[2009-02-18 15:27:05] <rvojta_> and according to Cmd-M vs Ctrl-M, Philipp are you working on them already or not? if not, I can fix it too, it's up to you
[2009-02-18 15:27:36] <PhilippL> I'd like to do that in your CWS.
[2009-02-18 15:27:51] <rvojta_> feel free to do whatever you want to do with this CWS
[2009-02-18 15:27:57] <PhilippL> thanks !
[2009-02-18 15:28:14] <rvojta_> ok, so, recap from my side
[2009-02-18 15:28:24] <rvojta_> macshortcuts01 cws will contain
[2009-02-18 15:28:27] <rvojta_>  - MOD3 support
[2009-02-18 15:28:47] <rvojta_>  - fixes from Stephan for platform specific shortcuts in officecfg's Accelerators.xcu
[2009-02-18 15:29:12] <rvojta_>  - few Mac OS X shortcuts fixes - Cmd-M, Cmd-Shift-Z (Redo) and Cmd-T (F11)
[2009-02-18 15:29:41] <rvojta_> this should be all for this CWS, I do not want to have it bigger, due to various reasons, smoother QA, etc.
[2009-02-18 15:29:47] <rvojta_> additional things later
[2009-02-18 15:30:02] <rvojta_> so, any comments to shortcuts or my cws changes?
[2009-02-18 15:30:48] <rvojta_> and I forgot, there's meta issue http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=99080 which should hold all Mac OS X shortcuts problems, just to keep track of them
[2009-02-18 15:30:59] <IZBot> issue 99080: ui TASK NEW P3 Meta - Mac OS X shortcuts
[2009-02-18 15:33:59] <rvojta_> nothing? if yes, this is all I wanted to say on shortcuts for now, you can track progress in issues or at planet.go-oo.org
[2009-02-18 15:34:08] <PhilippL> Ok, anything more concerning the accelerators ?
[2009-02-18 15:35:42] <PhilippL> Then let's proceed with 3. #  Current status of the port: roadmap 
[2009-02-18 15:37:11] <PhilippL> Do we have a detailed roadmap ?
[2009-02-18 15:38:06] <rvojta_> I don't know, I probably never saw a roadmap for Mac OS X
[2009-02-18 15:38:47] <rvojta_> ah, I missed it, here it is http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X_Porting_-_Roadmap
[2009-02-18 15:38:48] <PhilippL> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X_Porting_-_Roadmap
[2009-02-18 15:39:04] <PhilippL> that's more informal though, more a list of priorities.
[2009-02-18 15:39:45] <PhilippL> moreover it's not up to date
[2009-02-18 15:40:37] <rvojta_> I have more issues in my mind, I can add them there too, but I think it's good idea to have list of things to be done for 3.2, 3.3, 4.x, ...
[2009-02-18 15:41:11] <PhilippL> Certainly.
[2009-02-18 15:42:06] <PhilippL> mod is working on a services implementation and has some first things running, but not for integration yet.
[2009-02-18 15:44:07] <PhilippL> ericb was working on opengl transitions for the presentation, I don't know how far that is.
[2009-02-18 15:46:48] <rvojta_> from my side, I would like to improve Java speed issues too, but after shortcuts
[2009-02-18 15:47:28] <PhilippL> hmm, java speed issues ?
[2009-02-18 15:47:34] <rvojta_> it takes ages to write something after OO.o start, on my pretty fast machine, I start OO.o, new writer document, hit some keys, beach ball appears for +- 5 seconds (sometimes) more than text appears
[2009-02-18 15:47:52] <PhilippL> And that is java ?
[2009-02-18 15:48:37] <rvojta_> can be, but I'm not sure, I run Shark on OO.o and saw that 85% of this beach ball wait time was spent starting Java
[2009-02-18 15:48:46] <hdu_hh> rjojta_: I talked about this phenomon with a manager
[2009-02-18 15:49:19] <hdu_hh> rvojta_: he explained to me that this is a feature: OOo doesn't use resources until it really needs it
[2009-02-18 15:49:33] <rvojta_> I need to examine it more, it's just first suspicious thing that came to my mind
[2009-02-18 15:49:48] <hdu_hh> rvojta_: and it doesn't need spellchecking etc. until you hit the first key
[2009-02-18 15:50:20] <hdu_hh> rvojta_: I disagreed that it was a "feature", enough said...
[2009-02-18 15:50:23] <rvojta_> hdu_hh: I understand, but this is not good from the user's point of view
[2009-02-18 15:50:25] <PhilippL> theoretically it cannot need spell checking until the second character is entered ...
[2009-02-18 15:50:26] <PhilippL> :-)
[2009-02-18 15:50:45] <rvojta_> but practically, beach ball is here even if I hit one key
[2009-02-18 15:50:55] <rvojta_> same applies to Calc, ... :(
[2009-02-18 15:51:47] <rvojta_> this is really annoying, I think it can be loaded during module startup, because I'm not starting Writer, Calc, ... to look at icons ;-)
[2009-02-18 15:51:53] <rvojta_> I want to write something ;-)
[2009-02-18 15:52:09] <rvojta_> others probably too ;-)
[2009-02-18 15:52:33] <PhilippL> cd_oo: you're involved in the new performance effort, any comments ?
[2009-02-18 15:53:41] <cd_oo> I am just in the analysis phase regarding startup and library loading / data file access
[2009-02-18 15:54:32] * rvojta_ did not see this behavior on Windows, Linux, even on slower machines :(
[2009-02-18 15:55:01] <cd_oo> After startup the update service is started, may be there can be problems with the connection. I am not sure if the connection is opened in the main thread which would explain the delay.
[2009-02-18 15:55:42] <rvojta_> AFAIK there's already reported issue about this beach ball, but I can't remember the number :(
[2009-02-18 15:56:14] <cd_oo> As far as i know the update service is not implemented using anything from Java.
[2009-02-18 15:57:25] <rvojta_> I just tested it again, 8 seconds of waiting until 'a' appears in Writer, new MBP with 4 GBs of RAM
[2009-02-18 15:58:37] <cd_oo> There must be something special with OpenOffice.org on Mac. I don't see any in process Java during Writer startup. May be there is an extension involved. Many of them are implemented using Java!
[2009-02-18 15:58:55] <rvojta_> hmmm, and it looks like it happens for new writer's document again, open new writer, hit a, wait 8 seconds for a to be displayed, create new writer document, hit a again in this new document, and again, wait +- same time for a to be displayed
[2009-02-18 16:00:03] <cd_oo> Sounds something like spell checking. Any extension involved?
[2009-02-18 16:00:16] <PhilippL> FWIW, I don't have that delay. Also the first one is shorter on my iMac, 2GB
[2009-02-18 16:00:57] <rvojta_> m41, default extensions installed, all disabled
[2009-02-18 16:00:58] <PhilippL> So if java starts up there, we should really find out why.
[2009-02-18 16:02:29] <rvojta_> I will examine it more later, I have same issue with official 3.0 build
[2009-02-18 16:03:22] <rvojta_> this can be my local machine issue, I'll test it on another machine and will let you know
[2009-02-18 16:03:48] <cd_oo> Yes, this problem must be better investigated in detail. Just break into the debugger during the hangup should give some more info.
[2009-02-18 16:04:03] <rvojta_> I found the issue, I'm not alone
[2009-02-18 16:04:04] <rvojta_> http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=98052
[2009-02-18 16:04:10] <IZBot> issue 98052: Word processor DEFECT NEW P3 slow, spinning beach ball for almost any action
[2009-02-18 16:04:49] <rvojta_> I read it again and I already remember what I did
[2009-02-18 16:05:20] <rvojta_> I tested it in Calc, spinning beach ball for 8 seconds, and Java was started for sure
[2009-02-18 16:05:40] <rvojta_> I disabled it, but when I hit 'a' in a cell, dialog that Java is needed appears
[2009-02-18 16:05:46] <rvojta_> no extensions installed
[2009-02-18 16:07:21] <cd_oo> Java is started once in-process. This cannot explain that the hangup occurs again and again.
[2009-02-18 16:07:58] <PhilippL> at least that is as it should be.
[2009-02-18 16:08:01] <rvojta_> I will examine it in detail and I'll try to prepare some detailed description how to reproduce it
[2009-02-18 16:08:32] <PhilippL> There are some system specific services for mac, the spell checker and media framework implemenation come to mind.
[2009-02-18 16:08:43] <PhilippL> perhaps one of the contains some connection to java ?
[2009-02-18 16:09:22] <cd_oo> Spellchecker is started whenever you first type something in.
[2009-02-18 16:09:51] <PhilippL> yes, so if the mac spellcheck service does something with java perhaps.
[2009-02-18 16:10:33] <cd_oo> I will ask Thomas Lange if he knows something about Mac spellchecker.
[2009-02-18 16:11:13] <PhilippL> oh, the UNO service just uses Cocoa, what I meant is the system spell checker itself.
[2009-02-18 16:12:50] <PhilippL> Well, I think we're well into 5 - Roundtable
[2009-02-18 16:14:01] <rvojta_> well, stupid question, who's Mac port leader? just curious, can't find
[2009-02-18 16:15:03] <PhilippL> shaun officially
[2009-02-18 16:16:06] <rvojta_> thanks
[2009-02-18 16:18:46] * rvojta_ tried to run Spin Control (Developer's Performance Tool) and OO.o wasn't responsive for 8,84 second exactly, have to investigate
[2009-02-18 16:19:10] <rvojta_> from my side, I haven't more things to discuss
[2009-02-18 16:19:23] <PhilippL> Ok, anybody else then ?
[2009-02-18 16:19:55] * rvojta_ would like to thank you pl, cl, sb and others for helping me to proceed with shortcuts, thanks
[2009-02-18 16:20:06] <rvojta_> s/cl/cd/ ;-)
[2009-02-18 16:20:30] <PhilippL> thank you for your work !
[2009-02-18 16:20:48] <PhilippL> It's something I know we'd have to do, but have not found the time yet.
[2009-02-18 16:21:17] <rvojta_> you're welcome
[2009-02-18 16:21:20] <PhilippL> ok, let's conclude this meeting then.
[2009-02-18 16:21:42] * rvojta_ agree
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