Community Council Log 20100304

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Community Council

The Community Council members are your representatives



Ideas related to the community? Tell us!

Date: 2010-03-04 Time: 19:30 UTC (incl. warming up)


  • Louis Suarez-Potts (oulipo_to)
  • Christian Lohmaier (cloph) deputy for Christoph Noack (christoph_n)
  • Martin Hollmichel (_Nesshof_)
  • Matthias Huetsch (mhu)
  • Cor Nouws (CorNouws)
  • Stefan Taxhet (stx12)
  • Juergen Schmidt (jsc)
  • Pavel Janík (paveljanik)
  • Charles-H. Schulz (southerncross)

Absent: John McCreesh (jpmcc)


oulipo_to shall we start?
southerncross welcome cloph
southerncross yes
stx12 fine with me
oulipo_to agenda is as posted:
oulipo_to please review if you have not done so already
stx12 just a quick note; it seems branding is not on the agenda
oulipo_to hm, you are right
oulipo_to shall we add it at th eend
oulipo_to ?
oulipo_to I would favour that
oulipo_to meanwhile, do we agree with the minutes posted for 18 Feb meeting?
oulipo_to indicate only if you do not
stx12 that might be a bit late; the latest 5 minutes before our time runs out
oulipo_to hearing no nays, minutes to 18f Feb. meeting approved
*** louis_to has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
* stx12 hopes we are fast...
oulipo_to and given the importance of the branding I'd suggest we deal with it first.
oulipo_to Do all agree?
southerncross okay...
mhu yes
oulipo_to hearing no objections, we will deal with branding first
stx12 ok, then let me start with a look at the branding group 
oulipo_to stx12: do you want to inform us
oulipo_to thx
CorNouws sorry, missed a part; I would like to start with the branding thing
oulipo_to :-)
stx12 CorNouws, yes we do
* CorNouws missed even more :-)
stx12 the branding group went through a period of discussions and experiments 
stx12 where the constraints of the effort were not well defined
stx12 at different stages Sun/Oracle did not communicate clearly enough
stx12 what the expected outcome of a discussion or work could be
stx12 this led to disappointment that could have been avoided
stx12 we'll work together with people involved in this effort and
stx12 other areas to understand how they experienced it and
stx12 what lessons we all can learn
stx12 Cor will join me to drive this.
stx12 Cor?
CorNouws Yes, Thanks Stefan, I think that is a fair and somehow brave statement.
CorNouws (is brave correct here?) It will help us
CorNouws As was obvious for at least some of you, I was (and am) not so happy 
CorNouws with the situation, also from community point of view.
CorNouws To find a way out, and make something positive out it, late this 
CorNouws afternoon Stefan and I started to work on a plan
CorNouws  to regain confidence and to really start learning and improving.
CorNouws We have an initial, rough, but also quite detailed draft, that we like to share with you soon to get feed back.
CorNouws and to start ...
southerncross a draft about what exactly?
CorNouws How we can find out what is to learn and how to use that experiences.
CorNouws Stefan?
southerncross ok
stx12 ... about the way to run something like a postmortem, establish best practices, ... better understand each other
southerncross that does sound really helpful, indeed
CorNouws It is obvious that despite good intentions, sometimes we fail hard. That is a pitty at least. Better try to avaid that in future.
stx12 but let's move from the branding group top the branding initiative
stx12 Back to topic of the brand refresh.
oulipo_to yes
stx12 all the above said I think to a certain extend it was worth the trials.
stx12 we came to the point where it was time to move forward with groundwork
stx12 for the next release and the branding initiative
stx12 and I think we see a huge improvement over the current state
stx12 I just introduced the logo and symbol to the community by pointing 
stx12 to
stx12 and the branding initiative will be the environment to work on the next tasks 
stx12 i think the release team and the branding group will appreciate that they now can prepare the next steps
stx12 and yes, charles, feel free to blog ;-)
oulipo_to thanks, stefan
mhu yes, thanks stx12 and CorNouws
oulipo_to stx12, Cor: do you have a proposal that we shoudl act on here and now related to branding?
southerncross ok but then I have two questions here
southerncross 1) ar 
southerncross 1) are these logos final, at least for the foreseeab:
southerncross foreseeable future?
southerncross 2)
southerncross where did the logo with the shadow go?
CorNouws oulipo_to: no, I have not
stx12 ad 1) 
stx12 yes, the new logo will be introduced now gradually in different area
southerncross ok
stx12 but we need some guidelines about the usage
stx12 ad 2) 
stx12 i will add it as soon as we finish this meeting 
stx12 it's one of the possible derivatives of the symbol
southerncross ok
oulipo_to stx12: will not the eventually completed trademark policy cover usage?
southerncross thanks stx12
southerncross nope: we need actual "branding" policies, that is designs
southerncross those are ot
southerncross not covered by the trademark policies
stx12 oulipo_to: to a certain degree; but as said earlier we have differentiate between the when/if and how
southerncross because they are subject to change from one release to another
stx12 the "how" will be covered in the guidelines 
oulipo_to where are we working on that docuemnt? trademark@coiuncil?
stx12 and i think this should be one of the first topics in the beanding initiative
oulipo_to or branding@marketing?
stx12 the latter
stx12 see the status section in the web page
oulipo_to and, yes, I quite agree: a logo without a policy is a clothing without the man :-)
oulipo_to ah
oulipo_to any more comments?
oulipo_to if not, let's move on to the proper agenda
stx12 that's it from my end on branding
CorNouws Yes, I 'll send our rough detailed draft this evening
oulipo_to Thanks
oulipo_to so, on to agenda...
southerncross yes
southerncross one
southerncross a bit controversial:
southerncross how do we do the damage control withe art project?
oulipo_to southerncross: what do you mean, exactly?
southerncross they expect or will expect an explanation....
cloph good thing is that the branding-initiative was already announced / art project is aware of branding efforts - so while there surely will be complaints, at least it doesn't come full out of nowhere
stx12 members of the art project have been involved in the branding group; i would be glad if we could convince those to continue with the effort in the branding initiative 
CorNouws I think it is of the greatest importance what Stefan said in his first statement
southerncross what I mean is this: they work on logo proposals, then Hamburg + the CC works on another one, and then we tell them
CorNouws and the effort to learn we started with
oulipo_to and I think we've made some good efforts to inform them of the situation, no?
CorNouws southerncross: so you agree with us (stefan and me) that is was not ideal the process ;-)
stx12 oulipo_to: to a certain degree; and where this is/was incomplete we'll (CorNouws and I) see in our "postmortem"
oulipo_to perhaps we should get back to the agenda, as it is late....
oulipo_to stx12: great! I look forward to it, as we've certainly gone over this ground before, with other issues, and it's often been painful
CorNouws southerncross: Is this clear enought for now? 
* oulipo_to ten years of memories to be forgotten :-)
southerncross help us to take the designs further 
southerncross but they need to know wha
southerncross why we superseded their own initiatives.
southerncross yes, I was wondering on the practicalities of the issue
southerncross like sending an email, etc. , that's a matter of communication, not a matter of dealing with the issue itself.
southerncross CorNouws: yes
CorNouws southerncross: Thanks. And I agree, it is communication.
* stx12 feel's like southerncross is going to join CorNouws and me to investigate one or the other area
CorNouws stx12: ;-)
oulipo_to stx12, Cor, I'd be happy to join your effort 
oulipo_to but I suspect the fewer engaged in it the fastrer its production
CorNouws oulipo_to: Thanks Louis (and all others that will join as well ;-) )
oulipo_to Stefan and I have similar memories of like events, issues, over the last decade....
jsc important is the outcome and that we will really learn something ;-)
CorNouws Indeed: quality, no spead pls - but lets discuss this later and I follow your proposal to look at the agenda ..
oulipo_to very well, then let's turn to the agenda
oulipo_to 1.0: 2010-03-03: Louis sent the mail for nomination on 2010-02-27. The nomination phase will end 2010-03-15 15 at 24:00 UTC.
oulipo_to Next Steps: ???
southerncross stx12: sure, why not. Community processes have to be respected EVEN IF some of the community logos in the pas (think Otto) make me think we ought to have been more professional, just like the refresh of these days...
southerncross sure, sorry.
oulipo_to next step is like the November election: we wait for the nominations period to expire 15 March
oulipo_to then move on with the nominations provided; stx12 updates the voting mechanism and will, if he is inclined, notify the relevant communities
* stx12 thanks _Nesshof_ for the code contributor list to fill the voting machine
oulipo_to we then hold the vote over a period of one week (more if desired)
mhu have we already had nominations ?
oulipo_to yes
oulipo_to John McC was nominated by Florian E.
mhu oh, I must have missed that ...
oulipo_to he posted it to dev@marketing
oulipo_to which is the relevant community.k
oulipo_to he mght want to post it to discuss@ooo, as well
mhu ah, I have ~250 unread messages in dev@marketing :-(
oulipo_to and I'll remind him to do so.
oulipo_to :-)
oulipo_to I think that 1.0 on agenda has been updated sufficiently
oulipo_to let us move on to 2.09:
oulipo_to 2.0, that is
oulipo_to I sent to the CC members the draft I'm working on
CorNouws Thanks - shall we have a look and finalize for next meeting?
oulipo_to it's simolar language for Inc. and NLC, modulo the future options each category implies
oulipo_to well, yoiu can spare your eyes the look now; I ssent it mostly to get myself over the writers' block that had prevented me from doing this
oulipo_to a better draft will be ready tonight or tomorrow
oulipo_to but, yes, next meeting for finished version (or version nearly finished, absent commentary from the CC)
oulipo_to so update: being worked on, finished version for next meeting for approval by CC, with version to be sent to the list 3 days prior to the CC meeting if not sooner
oulipo_to comments?
mhu fine with me
CorNouws no more than: thanks again
oulipo_to okay, then let's move on to 3
oulipo_to Publicise the open slot at the start of the CC meetings
oulipo_to that coiuld be rephrased, as, "Publicise the CC meeting. State that community can attend if not participate for 1/2 hour of meeting"
oulipo_to but phrased like that, it also sounds kind of lame
oulipo_to so, do we want participation? 
oulipo_to I'd say, yes. but only with agenda items
oulipo_to (I had raised this point, a version of it, at least, earlier)
CorNouws No, sounds to wide for me
jsc maybe -> 10 minutes public Q&A to the CC
CorNouws I propose that we think a bit further first
CorNouws jsc: yes, smtng like that
oulipo_to okay; but jsc's QA is about the same as agenda items: focused discussion, not wide stuff
mhu maybe _Nesshof_ can rephrase his initial idea ... ?
oulipo_to hence, "agenda items"
CorNouws oulipo_to: it is getting late, and this point is not urgent.
CorNouws so do it next meeting pls
_Nesshof_ mhu: Yes, I will do a proposal for this
mhu thanks, Martin
* cloph likes this "open door" idea
_Nesshof_ you can transfer the AI to me
jsc or you can simply take it ;-) -> it's a wiki ;-)
oulipo_to then update for 3.0: Martin has taken on the AI and will frame the scope and kind of participation by the community in the next council meeting, or at least when it is suitable (next may not be)
oulipo_to jsc: that agenda is for this meeting, not next
jsc ok
oulipo_to So, on to #4: Work with Clayton on estimates for Developing developers documentation
oulipo_to Jürgen, that's yours for updating....
jsc i hope you all have read the proposal
jsc i think it's too much to cover it in one step
jsc i would propose to skip the extensions part and focus on the core development guide
oulipo_to hm.
oulipo_to that is direclty in contrast to what we agreed upon in hamburg....
oulipo_to I mean, extensions can be worked oin without too much effort, relatively speaking
CorNouws oulipo_to:  not as I see it
oulipo_to core requires a lot of investment
oulipo_to CorNouws; explain
CorNouws extensions part as so much finished already
CorNouws or istn't it
jsc but that is more needed and 40K is too much i think
CorNouws that what we really want is next steps
CorNouws  XXX break here
CorNouws we agreed not to start too wide detailed discussions in the meetings
oulipo_to CorNouws, jsc" I am all for Core development! 
oulipo_to but... for getting things going, first, I had the impression we needed the extensions done
CorNouws if it is not clear: bakc to the table (list) to make more detailed / worked out proposal pls
southerncross look; if I may: if anyone wants to talk money then we need requirements and some form of work items for the paid writer.
oulipo_to I am tending to agree with CorNouws: this needs specifics
southerncross you don't thrown xx K Euros or dollars out in the nature....
* mhu agrees with CorNouws: we obviously need more detailed discuss on the list first
jsc the AI was for all to come with proposals based on Clayton's work
CorNouws oulipo_to:  thnks. jsc: help needed in the discussion, workin out details?
CorNouws jsc: Yes, we saw some comments and those can be used for a adapted proposal?
jsc i will talk with Clayton
jsc how much money do we want to invest, roughly?
oulipo_to So, update 4.0: Jürgen, in addition to others to work on tech writer propsal ; jsc will coordinate with Clayton (and others, I presume)
oulipo_to I am not familiar with how much a tech writer costs
oulipo_to but I'd guess that for something like this, if we are working on Core and Extensions (or vice versa), around 15K
* CorNouws I thought we stalled the topic, eeh tipoc
* cloph sees PDL and fears this will lead to "stupid licence choice, impossible to keep it up-to-date/too much burden for contributors" style comments - Put otherwise: Is it planned to release updates to that document/book regularily, or will it be released once, then constantly updated online (or forgotten, having it bit rot?) Or is this question way too early in the process?
oulipo_to but I'd ask Frank Peters (down the hall) how much tech writers cost
CorNouws 5 GSOC - no reply from the google GSOC manager alas
CorNouws maybe we can make a last (indirect) effort to establish contact
CorNouws steps have to be taken really soon 
CorNouws will conact John ASAP
CorNouws next item pls
oulipo_to cloph: no, it's a relevant question but it is also one that can be answered and dealt with on list
oulipo_to CorNouws; hold on, please
jsc that was done with the initial proposal
CorNouws oulipo_to: who is breaking order?
oulipo_to but if we are agreed, let's indeed move on to #5
oulipo_to so, we have the update from CorNouws
* CorNouws don't want to stop avoid discussion - but can better be done later - sorry
oulipo_to Cor: I know Leslie quite well
cloph n.p - just continue, didn't expect a final answer/discussion on this
oulipo_to If it is okay with yoiu, I would contact her
CorNouws yes pls, will send you our initial mails
oulipo_to but I also want to see about our own related efforts--the internship program
oulipo_to CorNouws: thanks. feel free to do so whenever you can
CorNouws different tipoc, to come later, not now
oulipo_to CorNouws: yes, I know
oulipo_to agreed to move onto #6?
oulipo_to Talk to Education Project Leads about structure and remit
oulipo_to Cor: update?
CorNouws No progres - i've been 'Branded' last week
CorNouws but have some contact with John (again) on this
CorNouws will foloow up asap
CorNouws OK?
oulipo_to okay; thanks. I've been pinged by one of the leads, too, and must respond
oulipo_to thanks
mhu okay
oulipo_to all agreed to move onto #7?
oulipo_to Charles: Talk to NLC about ‘NLC of the Month’ for OOo Newsletter
southerncross yes: So again GA project is the first one (Irish Gaelic)
southerncross and I expect the interview to be completed by tomorrow or so
southerncross Once I have the full text
southerncross I will send it to Kay Koll
southerncross but will also work with John and Florian on this.
southerncross You should also know that there's some initiative to publish the interview in a local newspaper
southerncross as part of the promotion efforts for OOo there.
southerncross Other than that, not much...
oulipo_to southerncross: that's great
oulipo_to by local newspaper, which Locality?
southerncross thanks. Let's see what it will give. GA project is small, so we'll see what impact it can have
southerncross oh, the Irish Gaelic newspaper.
southerncross one of them, at least, if there's more than one.
southerncross my wild guess is the local Galway newspaper?
oulipo_to cool. I should hope we can also inspire the Welsh and other gaels ...
* southerncross nods
* oulipo_to wonders if iti is Lá Nua....
southerncross ah, perhaps.
oulipo_to thanks for this and let's keep others involved. As always, of course, it would be even better if they not only used it in Ireland, but also decided to spare some brain and develop it :-)
oulipo_to shall we move on to next item? 
CorNouws pls
cloph for the template, Christoph did commit an update to the wiki yesterday, and updated the agenda page accordingly - to quote him "Please review the proposal - or even better - accept it :-)"
cloph (the day before yesterday)
jsc yes, i saw it and like it +1 from me for it
CorNouws sorry to say I did not find/make time to review.
_Nesshof_ +1 as well
oulipo_to I also did not but will do so immediately
oulipo_to after this meeting
jsc CorNouws: trust us ;-)
mhu +1, looks good to me.
oulipo_to have others reviewed it yet? If not, please do so and comment onlist or now
stx12 it's fine with me
oulipo_to given our past history, I urge you to wait with coments until you've actually read it over and thought about it
cloph no problem if you want to reply after official meeting, I'll be online
oulipo_to thanks; we also have the list :-)
cloph (or of course you can use mail, etc)
oulipo_to but a quick survey suggests it's pretty good. but I want to look at it more deeply
CorNouws I will have a look especially at how I can really use it for my tasks in the CC
oulipo_to so AI to us all, please look over Christoph's proposal and submit to the list yoru comments
oulipo_to if all agreed, let's move on
oulipo_to John is absent today so cannot do it, but MH....?
mhu #9 is done
oulipo_to the wiki link?
mhu oh, John did send it via email ... wait ...
oulipo_to thx
jsc by the way he column additional information in the agenda can be used in front of the meeting
oulipo_to this is much clearer
oulipo_to all agreed, shall we move onto 10 and 11?
cloph As for calendar, pages are updated/online, so basically "task completed" :-) 
oulipo_to thx!
oulipo_to so, onto #11
oulipo_to Trademark	 Stefan
oulipo_to Next Step: Stefan will provide some updates in the next meeting.
stx12 i don't have a real update; at least the contacts in the new company have been established.
oulipo_to shall we have an update next meeting?
stx12 sure
oulipo_to do we have new items for the last 6 plus minutes?
oulipo_to or five plus, that is
CorNouws no thanks - have another appointement ;-)
oulipo_to if no other news, then I move to adjourn this meeting
jsc we should put the branding item in the agenda for completeness
oulipo_to jsc: feel free :-)
CorNouws looks good that we managed to finish the agenda and more
oulipo_to new item for agenda next meeting: branding completion
stx12 ? 
oulipo_to jsc: elaborate...
oulipo_to ah, I misread jsc
oulipo_to sorry, he meant to add it to today's
oulipo_to apologies
stx12 I don't think that branding is a standing item for the agenda. 
oulipo_to so, this meeting is closed then, and branding was for today, not hence
stx12 ah, ok.
CorNouws ok - but who was doing minutes? or did I miss that in the beginning?
oulipo_to talk to you all later
oulipo_to no, you did not
oulipo_to minutes, as opposed to IRC log differ
oulipo_to for now, I'll post IRC log

Meeting adjourned approx. 21:00 UTC
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