Difference between revisions of "Community Council Minutes 20080925"

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# André Schnabel  
# André Schnabel  

Latest revision as of 14:43, 30 May 2010

Community Council

The Community Council members are your representatives



Ideas related to the community? Tell us!


  1. André Schnabel
  2. Martin Hollmichel
  3. Stefan Taxhet
  4. Cor Nouws
  5. Matthias Huetsch
  6. Pavil Janick
  7. Sophie Gautier

IRC logs

(19:40:45) CorNouws: better start with agenda (if I may suggest)?
(19:41:52) mhu: yes, please go ahead, Cor.
(19:41:52) Thalion72: CorNouws: good Idea- but seems, we need to skip first item
(19:42:33) CorNouws: Minutes first, but does anyone know about Louis?
(19:42:57) sophi: CorNouws: I'll write the minutes
(19:43:06) ***stx12 has no idea
(19:45:13) Thalion72: CorNouws: I'd say we should start .. would you lead the discusssion (as you kindly provided the agenda)?
(19:45:15) CorNouws: no one about Louis? What's his mobile BTW?
(19:45:21) CorNouws: sophi: Thanks! .. otoh: I meant to say that we have to approve the 'minutes' of 9-11 first
(19:45:34) CorNouws: Thalion72: OK if no one objects ...
(19:45:41) CorNouws: (wait 5000)
(19:45:54) mhu: +1 for the minutes
(19:46:01) mhu: ...of 9-11
(19:46:12) Thalion72: minutes ar ok to me
(19:46:17) _Nesshof_: +1
(19:46:37) paveljanik: +1
(19:46:39) stx12: ok
(19:46:45) sophi: ok
(19:46:56) CorNouws: OK, thanks all.
(19:47:20) CorNouws: next item: "Louis proposal for Trademark"
(19:47:38) _Nesshof_: did I miss something ?
(19:47:54) CorNouws: Sadly, his idea to send it few evenings agoo, seemed to be blocked somehow
(19:47:55) Thalion72: _Nesshof_: no
(19:48:10) stx12: we all missed the proposal
(19:48:19) CorNouws: _Nesshof_: indeed, no proposal yet, so I'm afraid we have to skip it . again
(19:48:19) Thalion72: CorNouws: I'd suggest to skip this item (as usual)
(19:48:41) CorNouws: Next item: "Update on Community year plan" - my proposal to freeze ...
(19:49:01) Thalion72: but I'm close to request to remove Louis from the council due to inactivity
(19:49:11) CorNouws: Pls read here if you haven't alreadu done: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/The_OpenOffice.org_Community_Council_Agenda
(19:49:38) CorNouws: Thalion72: I'll keep that for the end of the agenda, OK?
(19:49:39) sophi: Thalion72: I would agree but I want the trademarks published first :)
(19:49:47) CorNouws: sophi: :-)
(19:50:05) Thalion72: CorNouws: what are the "urgent matters " ?
(19:50:55) CorNouws: trademark, council memberships and voting .. just our own roots, I would say
(19:50:55) mhu: yes, can you please explain, Cor ?
(19:51:09) mhu: oh, thanks
(19:51:38) Thalion72: CorNouws: ok - so if I get you right you like to delay our work on the community year plan until these points are resolved?
(19:52:04) CorNouws: Yes, that is one part ...
(19:52:38) CorNouws: Other part: it only makes sense to work on it, it there is enough active support (one way or another)
(19:52:59) CorNouws: (one way = cc members, other might be (in future) staff )
(19:53:30) CorNouws: Is my feeling about this clear to all?
(19:54:07) mhu: hmm, yes: not enough support from other members, right?
(19:54:09) stx12: yes, but there is a third option - more involvement of people beyond cc (or staff), or?
(19:54:09) Thalion72: CorNouws: agreed - official delay would just state, what would happen anyway
(19:55:30) Thalion72: stx12: we can put the year plan to the agenda again at any time (e.g. after we have an idea how to involve more people in the council's work)
(19:55:45) CorNouws: mhu, stx12 : well, there may be some nuances (is that English?), but that will become clear whem we meet live, shortly, I expect :-)
(19:56:41) stx12: so we move the discussion of the year plan at the bottom of the agenda until we find something else that should be moved there...
(19:57:38) CorNouws: stx12: Agenda of today, or more in general ? Non of that is really my idea.
(19:57:59) sophi: until we don't know who are the active members (coders/non coders) and a way to recognize them to involve them in the staff, we can't discuss a future staff and activities
(19:58:04) mhu: so you have some ideas on how to improve, that we should talk about then?
(19:58:51) CorNouws: IMO, this is best to discuss in Hamburg, when we see and meet it is much more human and effictive to understand each other.
(19:58:57) stx12: I meant it in general; you prefer to stall the item; looks like a hen and egg problem to me...
(19:59:19) stx12: CorNouws: agreed
(19:59:38) mhu: okay, agreed.
(19:59:45) CorNouws: stx12: thanks. Also clear enought for the others to agree for the moment?
(19:59:59) _Nesshof_: yes
(20:00:19) Thalion72: yes
(20:00:36) sophi: yes
(20:01:30) CorNouws: To be continued :-)
(20:01:36) CorNouws: Next item "Update on Ask the AB to define clearly its role in OOo"
(20:01:51) CorNouws: Been discussed extensively. Any other questions /remarks on this subject?
(20:02:06) CorNouws: Other that who has the taks to type and send?
(20:02:21) mhu: no, I guess.
(20:02:42) sophi: CorNouws: me I guess
(20:02:43) Thalion72: not from my side
(20:03:27) CorNouws: sophi: Fine + someone else, volunteering (2 representatives imo suites best in most cases)
(20:04:20) CorNouws: Is propose someone from the developers-part of te council
(20:04:33) CorNouws: mhu: ?
(20:04:45) Thalion72: I'd suggest John (although absent atm, he woked together with sophi on the letter)
(20:05:09) mhu: well, I can do, maybe.
(20:05:54) mhu: where 'maybe' means: if you all agree.
(20:06:05) CorNouws: Thanks ... +1
(20:06:25) CorNouws: Others ..?
(20:06:27) _Nesshof_: ]q
(20:06:32) Thalion72: +1
(20:06:51) ***_Nesshof_ lost his German kezboard
(20:07:01) _Nesshof_: +1
(20:07:08) ***Thalion72 will bring one along next week ;)
(20:07:29) paveljanik: +1
(20:07:31) sophi: +1 too
(20:08:13) mhu: okay, that means, sophi and I are supposed to send that letter out, that is already prepared and discussed, right?
(20:08:33) Thalion72: yes
(20:08:47) sophi: mhu, yes, on behalf of the CC
(20:08:47) CorNouws: mhu: OK fine, lets discuss details later
(20:09:11) CorNouws: Glad that we have been able to bring this to an end.
(20:09:35) mhu: sophi: yes, that was what I meant to say.
(20:09:38) paveljanik: CorNouws: no, this is not end...
(20:09:51) paveljanik: we well wait endlessly for an answer...
(20:10:43) sophi: paveljanik: but you won't wait ;-)
(20:10:52) CorNouws: paveljanik: somewhere there can be a start, But I'll be hapy to discuss with you (and the others) what might be needed in that situation
(20:10:56) paveljanik: sophi: I do not care
(20:11:07) sophi: paveljanik: this is what I say :)
(20:11:18) CorNouws: paveljanik: O know, therefor I didn't aks your comment - with permission
(20:11:21) paveljanik: nothing is needed. And I will not spend one more minute on AB ;-)
(20:11:29) Thalion72: CorNouws: we can set an (internal) deadline of 4 weeks for an answer
(20:11:31) paveljanik: next item?
(20:11:38) Thalion72: next item
(20:11:39) CorNouws: paveljanik: I know, therefore I didn't aks your comment - with permission
(20:11:45) CorNouws: Yip
(20:11:57) CorNouws: "Update on modifications of the CC charter (André)"
(20:12:24) CorNouws: André, am I right if I suppose that it is best to wait after meeting in Hamburg with details?
(20:12:48) Thalion72: hmm .. let me at least give a status ;)
(20:12:59) CorNouws: Yes, pls
(20:13:12) Thalion72: and to me the Hamburg meeting is independend from the current proposal
(20:13:18) Thalion72: ok .. statusof the draft:
(20:14:05) Thalion72: Council Proposal is done (as long as we keep focus on "ho is on the council and how are the representatives elected")
(20:14:21) Thalion72: Election proposal has still two open points:
(20:14:38) Thalion72: 1st - electorate for Code Contributors
(20:15:08) Thalion72: Martin sent aproposal to dev@ooo .. and as he got only positive answers, I'm going to include this one
(20:15:32) _Nesshof_: Thalion72: zes, please
(20:15:41) Thalion72: 2nd - better description of the "Schulze voting method"
(20:16:11) Thalion72: the voting method still seems complex to me (even if I read the German description) -
(20:16:47) CorNouws: ok ... thanks for these highlights
(20:16:54) Thalion72: As Sophie pointet out, GEntoo and Dabian have some simple points in their voting rules. And we would need to include such descritpions
(20:17:22) Thalion72: ..helpwould be welcome (I'd guess I wil not be able to provide a good description before Hamburg)
(20:17:33) CorNouws: I've some "questions" as well by the "Schulze voting method"
(20:18:01) CorNouws: Methods for voting that work, should be easy and clear, IMO
(20:18:25) Thalion72: I second this
(20:18:26) CorNouws: And as far as I understood, it is not, not for anyone (but one?)
(20:18:39) CorNouws: So maybe to idealistich but not practical??
(20:18:52) CorNouws: .. just a suggestion, not yet sure on that!
(20:19:04) Thalion72: CorNouws: it is not "easy" - but it is "clear" (it is a well-defined mathematical method)
(20:19:23) sophi: CorNouws: some projects are already using it, so we can't say this is unpractical
(20:19:59) CorNouws: Ah, maybe the impression that I got from the mails was wrong ;-) but I think we cannot sort that out completely right now, isn 't it?
(20:20:08) stx12: the additional hurdle is to find a tool that implements it and we trust
(20:20:11) Thalion72: CorNouws: yes
(20:20:23) Thalion72: stx12: yes
(20:20:39) mhu: maybe we write that tool ourselfs, and open source it ?
(20:20:57) _Nesshof_: mhu: calc _
(20:21:02) stx12: i guess we could use john's help here. we trust his OOoCon ranking too...
(20:21:04) CorNouws: To be honust: I haven't studied why the method was proposed (it's benefits compared with other metods)
(20:21:10) sophi: mhu: tools are already available
(20:21:11) Thalion72: I was thinking about raising the question about the voting method at dev@de - we hadavery long and intensive discussion about voting methods for elections of our CoLeads
(20:22:06) Thalion72: CorNouws: this year's OOoCon vote is a good example
(20:22:13) mhu: I think the question was to find a tool that we (other community members) have trust into.
(20:22:56) sophi: Thalion72: and the new splash screen too...
(20:23:11) ***mhu has not yet have time to look at the available tools, and do a code review.
(20:23:12) CorNouws: Thalion72: example for what: the need or something that can be solved perfectly by the "Schulze voting method"
(20:23:43) CorNouws: IMO, we should better spent our developer resources to other code :-)
(20:23:44) Thalion72: CorNouws: the need for some fair voting method
(20:23:55) CorNouws: Thalion72: OK, clear.
(20:24:27) sophi: Thalion72: thanks :)
(20:24:36) Thalion72: mhu: it doesnt matter ifyou have a tool that implements the methods correctly, if our community does not trust in the method itself ;)
(20:24:42) CorNouws: But, I can't discuss this souriously without having studied it..
(20:25:08) Thalion72: CorNouws: ok .. I'll try to find more ideas about the method andprovide points for discussion
(20:25:16) CorNouws: And that applies for some others as well, if I understand it correctly
(20:25:45) CorNouws: Thalion72: Great, and maybe a summary of the discussion on dev@de is useful as well for us?
(20:26:19) mhu: okay, so we probably need to look deeper into how this is supposed to work.
(20:26:26) Thalion72: CorNouws: I'll provide this (in general I'd rather discuss this on a global list, but it would be far more easy to me to discuss in German)
(20:26:30) CorNouws: So, now we are going to state, in what time we cc members confirm to study the "Schulze voting method" in order to be able to decide ..
(20:27:27) mhu: until next meeting?
(20:27:34) Thalion72: CorNouws: I don'tlike to force all memebers to study the method - you are welcome, but I'd like to provide a good summary with pros and cons
(20:27:38) CorNouws: Thalion72: Do we all understand German well enough. Moslty, I can cope with it
(20:28:11) sophi: CorNouws: this is also described in english, and several examples too
(20:29:03) mhu: I am just now looking at the english wikipedia entry; that seems to be understandable.
(20:29:03) Thalion72: CorNouws: as said - I'll provide a summary
(20:29:03) CorNouws: Thalion72: Yes, but since it is very basic, I would not like to proceed and decide with every cc member (as far as available) involved
(20:29:03) mhu: ...to someone with a mathematical background at least :-)
(20:29:11) CorNouws: To summarize: a) We get info( Wiki / André)
(20:29:25) Thalion72: mhu: yes - and that's the problem. The voting needs to be accepted by our community members (and not all have mathematical background)
(20:29:30) CorNouws: b) We take x weeks to prepare
(20:29:42) CorNouws: where x is (proposal): 2 ...
(20:29:54) Thalion72: CorNouws: ok
(20:30:18) CorNouws: c) we must be able to explain to non-mathematical people as well!
(20:30:22) ***mhu thinks we should not have community members without mathematical background :-)
(20:30:49) paveljanik: mhu: are eliptic integrals enough? ;-)
(20:30:58) CorNouws: Pls vote first on my proposal (a-c) than Mathhias' ;)
(20:31:06) mhu: paveljanik: yes, that will do :-)
(20:31:15) CorNouws: May I have your votes pls?
(20:31:18) mhu: +1
(20:31:22) sophi: +1
(20:31:39) Thalion72: +1
(20:31:46) stx12: +1
(20:31:49) paveljanik: -1
(20:32:02) paveljanik: if method need mathematical description it is wrong.
(20:32:09) _Nesshof_: +1
(20:32:24) CorNouws: paveljanik: that is part of my proposal, part c.
(20:32:28) CorNouws: Agree?
(20:32:34) Thalion72: paveljanik: that's exactly whatpoint c is about
(20:32:53) sophi: paveljanik: mathematics are explainable even to children ;)
(20:34:27) paveljanik: sophi: yes, I studied math ;-)
(20:34:30) mhu: if we come to conclude that it is not explainable to mere mortals, that we look for something else, I'd think.
(20:34:40) Thalion72: mhu: correct
(20:34:40) paveljanik: ok, then +1 ;-)
(20:34:46) CorNouws: Thanks!
(20:34:47) mhu: s/that we look/than we look/
(20:34:49) sophi: mhu: ok
(20:35:46) Thalion72: Just one sentence to the current Charter proposal again ...
(20:35:48) CorNouws: André wrote: election proposal has still two open points
(20:35:53) CorNouws: So now one is solved, other one on its way
(20:36:02) Thalion72: CorNouws: CORRECT
(20:36:04) CorNouws: Thalion72: Yes pls
(20:36:51) Thalion72: Work on the proposal is going very slowly, as it is unclear if we do just discuss about MMeeks proposal or if we are working on a general change of the charter
(20:37:24) CorNouws: Seems a good oe for me to put in our basket for next week. what do you think?
(20:37:26) Thalion72: looking at the current "speed" of our work, I'd expect a general change to take at least 6 Months
(20:37:36) sophi: Thalion72: oups, for me it was a general change because our project has evolved and need it
(20:37:37) CorNouws: oe = one
(20:37:38) Thalion72: CorNouws: yes
(20:37:57) CorNouws: OK, if no one objects, I would like to go on with the agenda
(20:38:02) CorNouws: (wait 5000)
(20:38:31) mhu: yes, please go on (as usual the time comes were my dinner is waiting...)
(20:38:40) CorNouws: Extra agenda item:
(20:38:46) CorNouws: André being close to request to remove Louis from the council due to inactivity
(20:38:58) CorNouws: Is it fair to ask Louis'opinion on that?
(20:39:19) mhu: well, that is somewhat exaggerated, isn't it; I'd vote -1
(20:39:40) mhu: ...to andre's point, nit to cor's
(20:39:46) Thalion72: CorNouws: I'd request this on the mailing list - not here
(20:39:47) mhu: s/nit/not/
(20:40:28) Thalion72: mhu: well we seem to have different opinions on this :)
(20:40:32) CorNouws: Agree, but I gues we (...) understand andrés feelings about this subject
(20:41:07) CorNouws: Our charter does not provide in this situation...
(20:41:10) mhu: andre, I can understand your feelings, but anyhow.
(20:41:16) Thalion72: CorNouws: you skipped on agenda item -face2face meeting
(20:41:20) CorNouws: So we'll have to do with human interaction ;-)
(20:41:48) mhu: yes, please lets talk about f2f meeting before I need to leave.
(20:41:59) CorNouws: Thalion72: Right. The other item will come back later. Sorry for being so stupid.
(20:42:25) ***mhu thinks Cor is not so stupid :-)
(20:42:40) sophi: mhu: +1
(20:42:44) CorNouws: A) 3-10 afternoon, B) 3-10 evening, C) 4-10 morning
(20:43:25) CorNouws: (question just for those intending to join, of course)
(20:44:13) CorNouws: (D) 3-10 morning and E 4-10 afternoon also possible)
(20:44:16) mhu: I'd take (B)
(20:44:20) _Nesshof_: i~m fine with all three alternatives
(20:44:45) ***mhu thinks that Schultze voting would help here...
(20:44:58) sophi: mhu: lol
(20:44:58) mhu: :-)
(20:45:10) CorNouws: stx12, sophi, paveljanik: sorry, I'm not sure if one of you inteded to join
(20:45:32) paveljanik: I won't be able to join.
(20:45:34) stx12: ABC work for me
(20:45:55) sophi: CorNouws: I would be interested if I could, but it's to long for me to travel to Hamburg
(20:46:40) CorNouws: sophi: understandable. The least we can do, is communicate (before/during) to understand/excahnge
(20:47:05) mhu: (B) would also include andre's request to have a beer :-)
(20:47:07) sophi: CorNouws: yes, thanks :)
(20:47:08) Thalion72: so ..3-10 afternoon +evening with beer?
(20:47:22) _Nesshof_: +1
(20:47:22) CorNouws: OK, for me B is OK as well, but to be honust, woudl like to start the evening at about 17:00 or so ...
(20:47:39) mhu: yes, 17:00 is fine with me
(20:47:54) CorNouws: mhu: and Andrés suggestion?
(20:47:57) stx12: hm, i don't drink before it's dark
(20:48:10) mhu: it will get dark early
(20:48:12) CorNouws: I only drink dark beer in the sun :-)
(20:48:12) stx12: starting at 17:00 with beer?
(20:48:25) _Nesshof_: stx12: we should move meeting towards xmas
(20:48:39) mhu: so, then maybe not start with beer, but have a coffee first
(20:48:43) CorNouws: mhu: André asked to meet in the afternoon, you prefer evening ..
(20:48:59) stx12: no, the earlier the better for me.
(20:49:03) mhu: well, I can accept 17:00 as early evening
(20:49:18) stx12: i'm available in the evening.
(20:49:28) CorNouws: OK, that we set it at 17:00.
(20:49:47) CorNouws: (volunteers can come earlier for site seeing)
(20:49:47) _Nesshof_: stx12: do we have a location ?
(20:49:53) Thalion72: ok .. how long would you expect the meeting to last?
(20:50:17) CorNouws: Thalion72: with some breaks ... and your wishes ;)
(20:50:52) stx12: the question who is going to stay over night...
(20:50:52) CorNouws: Seriously, my gues would be three hours minimum
(20:51:09) CorNouws: all that come from far, probably
(20:51:18) Thalion72: stx12: I'd stay over night
(20:51:39) stx12: then you shouldn't make other appointments...
(20:51:40) CorNouws: And me too, if it is too late to have the train back
(20:51:57) stx12: is that what you are asking?
(20:52:21) CorNouws: Is it possible to discuss location details per mail, or do I risk travling to Hamburg then, without knowing where to go?
(20:52:44) CorNouws: stx12: ?
(20:53:09) mhu: yes, lets try to find a location via email; I now need to leave for dinner...
(20:53:10) stx12: there is always a business environemtn available where we can start - if we don't come up with something else...
(20:53:25) Thalion72: stx12: the question to me ist If I should ask other people for a "late night meeting" (for some more beers)
(20:53:52) Thalion72: ok - let's find a location via list
(20:53:58) stx12: i think if we want to get something done there is not much time left in the evening.
(20:54:27) CorNouws: stx12: agree with that, unless you wnat to make it very late (early)
(20:54:38) CorNouws: OK all ... I feel confident at the moment that this will work out fine
(20:54:49) CorNouws: any comments, questions?
(20:54:57) stx12: does anybody need help with a hotel?
(20:55:15) Thalion72: stx12: I think I'll find one
(20:55:18) CorNouws: stx12: maybe, will contact you later on that. Thanks for asking!
(20:55:34) CorNouws: Net item ...
(20:55:37) stx12: ok, fine
(20:55:47) Thalion72: do we have items left?
(20:55:59) CorNouws: Need to discuss something on OOo Con (whick looks fine on the route) or finish?
(20:56:23) CorNouws: IMO we're finished for now.
(20:56:34) CorNouws: (wait 5000)
(20:56:45) ***mhu is finally leaving for dinner
(20:56:55) mhu: +1, for finishing for today
(20:57:01) paveljanik: ok, bye
(20:57:03) Thalion72: +1 for finish (OOoCon looks fine to me)
(20:57:07) CorNouws: mhu: thaks for your paitience and contributions - enjoy your meal!

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