Application Rebranding - Project Home Page/Logo Guidelines/20100702
Conversation with #ooobranding at Fri 02 Jul 2010 01:57:04 PM CEST on @irc.freenode.net (irc)
(01:58:21 PM) ivantm: Hi Rosana
(01:58:44 PM) rosana_a: Hi Ivan
(01:58:50 PM) rosana_a: how are you doing?
(01:58:56 PM) rosana_a: must be late
(01:59:17 PM) ivantm: it's midnight, so not too bad :)
(01:59:37 PM) rosana_a: great, is good to find a time that works for you
(02:00:49 PM) ivantm: I've just sent an email to Stefan with the files to update the website to the new branding... I've had trouble with tunneling and SSH so couldn't do it myself :(
(02:01:48 PM) rosana_a: I'm sure Stefan can help
(02:01:56 PM) rosana_a: anyway, thanks for taking care of the website
(02:02:24 PM) rosana_a: I think the discussion around the redesign is making progress
(02:03:31 PM) ivantm: once we get these branding guidelines finalised, progress will probably be faster
(02:03:36 PM) igrammenidis [~firstname.lastname@example.org] entered the room.
(02:03:36 PM) rafaella [~chatzilla@p5B10BC42.dip.t-dialin.net] entered the room.
(02:03:42 PM) igrammenidis: Hi everyone
(02:03:51 PM) rafaella: hi
(02:04:36 PM) ivantm: welcome Ismael & Rafaella
(02:04:43 PM) rosana_a: Hello all
(02:05:54 PM) rosana_a: Shall we start?
(02:06:04 PM) rafaella: yes!
(02:06:14 PM) igrammenidis: OK
(02:06:48 PM) rosana_a: great
(02:07:03 PM) rosana_a: so let's start with the first topic: the symbol or gull orb
(02:07:05 PM) rosana_a: the uses
(02:08:17 PM) rosana_a: do you have any special cases where you think the symbol should be used, or we leave it to the designers?
(02:08:48 PM) rosana_a: it could be user, for example, for buttons in blogs, or a download button
(02:09:33 PM) rafaella: rosana_a: do we have a list of *cases* where this is currently used?
(02:09:42 PM) ivantm: in contrast with the logo, the symbol could be a means of allowing greater creativity
(02:09:58 PM) rosana_a: rafaella: nit yet, it is new
(02:10:29 PM) rosana_a: ivantm: I also think that the symbol should be used more freely
(02:10:46 PM) ivantm: currently it's used on: website favicon, main application icon, splash screen, about... pretty much everywhere where the new branding is
(02:11:02 PM) rosana_a: do you think it is necessary to have basic guidelines, like respecting form and colour
(02:11:31 PM) ivantm: so, rather than encouraging people to adapt the logo, we could encourage them to adapt the symbol
(02:11:45 PM) igrammenidis: In general, I think the logo already incorporates two gulls. There is already a lots of requests for exeptions on the logo. So the symbol is more as a replacement to the logo where there is more room for creativity...
(02:11:47 PM) igrammenidis: Of course, we should also have an "official" version and the use of it should be encouraged as well...
(02:12:07 PM) rosana_a: igrammenidis: I agree
(02:12:28 PM) rosana_a: I don't know if having the symbol in every color would be good for our branding
(02:13:56 PM) ivantm: we could have simpler guidelines (compared with the logo), like not distorting it, but other parts could be more flexible
(02:14:09 PM) rosana_a: ivantm: I agree
(02:14:16 PM) ivantm: currently the symbol is very prominent, I don't know if that will change in future versions
(02:14:23 PM) ivantm: eg. a new splash screen design
(02:14:36 PM) ivantm: which might displace the symbol
(02:14:45 PM) rosana_a: right
(02:15:07 PM) igrammenidis: Let's not forget that native language projects like to have a sort of extra secondary color. I read in a discussion on the list yesterday that for BrOffice we need a modified logo because of trademark issues. At the moment BrOffice.org uses green as their primary color. If they would use the official colors in the logo. But their specific "green" in the symbol. This would be a good way to not differentiate from the Brazil Community.
(02:16:03 PM) igrammenidis: Since BrOffice.org is well known recognisable brand in Brazil, as from what I understood reading the list...
(02:16:23 PM) rosana_a: yes, it is a known brand
(02:16:43 PM) stx12: that's right - but an exceptionel case with legalbackground.
(02:17:23 PM) stx12: in general nlc projects will / should be closer to the overall brand, or?
(02:17:47 PM) rosana_a: well that's why I always plea for having just the logo an symbol the same
(02:18:05 PM) rosana_a: I think there's plenty of room for creativity in the websites, print materials, collaterals
(02:18:31 PM) rosana_a: being consistent with logo + symbol would make the brand strong and leave enough room for creativity
(02:19:24 PM) igrammenidis: So the symbol should be restricted on shape and color? But can be changed with any design trends (glossy look, plastic look etc...)
(02:19:49 PM) igrammenidis: Or have a fix guideline like the logo?
(02:20:07 PM) ivantm: true, but as we saw with the sr.openoffice.org Twitter page, there will be a desire for NL projects to make OOo 'theirs' for their constituents
(02:20:17 PM) ivantm: and that includes the branding
(02:20:32 PM) rosana_a: that's true
(02:20:37 PM) rosana_a: I'm not against it
(02:20:55 PM) rosana_a: but if we have a few common visuals it's easier to see we're the same project
(02:21:59 PM) rosana_a: I also agree that the style can change
(02:22:16 PM) igrammenidis: so only a restriction on shape and color?
(02:22:22 PM) rosana_a: that's my proposal
(02:22:26 PM) igrammenidis: I agree
(02:23:01 PM) ivantm: i'm a bit reluctant on the topic of color, as Bernhard noted...
(02:23:07 PM) rosana_a: I know that with a new style the color slightly changes, but it would still be blue
(02:23:33 PM) igrammenidis: But how do we solve specific cases like BrOffice.org ? They use green
(02:24:09 PM) igrammenidis: That's a big change for them
(02:24:30 PM) ivantm: Bernhard wrote: "But as we had to notice in the past that Linux distributions changed the colors of our splash screen to fit with their color language, this might be the same with the symbol, if we can't include their ideas already at the begin of our work."
(02:24:41 PM) rosana_a: it is actually tricky, because as Stefan explained BrOffice was created as a different brand because legally it wasn't possible to register openoffice.org in brasil
(02:25:19 PM) rosana_a: ivantm: I understand your concerns, but I think that the cases of the Linux distros and the BrOffice are very special
(02:25:38 PM) igrammenidis: Perhaps we should leave BrOffice.org as it is, a different brand...
(02:26:00 PM) rosana_a: well, I'd be glad to see BrOffice visually closer to OpenOffice.org
(02:27:25 PM) ivantm: then the issue is with how we treat these special cases - we could just say no modifications in the guidelines and then work individually with these special cases?
(02:27:27 PM) igrammenidis: I understand, but what I suggest that they use a "transition period" so they get more blue on their website before changing the logo from one day to the other. Because that green color is very recognisable over there.
(02:27:47 PM) rosana_a: ivantm: I agree with you
(02:28:14 PM) rosana_a: igrammenidis: I also agree with you, but that's a discussion we have to have with the Brasilian community
(02:28:40 PM) igrammenidis: Ok, do we have more "special cases" like this?
(02:29:12 PM) rosana_a: As far as I know not like BrOffice
(02:29:48 PM) igrammenidis: Well, then I would just suggest to have a fix color and shape for the symbol, and leave the rest over to the creativity of the community
(02:30:23 PM) rosana_a: igrammenidis: I agree, and say that color exceptions are possible for Linux distros
(02:30:44 PM) igrammenidis: yes, I agree
(02:31:00 PM) ivantm: ok, so for general usage, we should keep it simple, clear and well-defined - i.e., consistent
(02:31:30 PM) rosana_a: ok
(02:32:32 PM) igrammenidis: But then perhaps it would be better, when introducing the colour change for the Linux distro, that the condition would be that they use the design trend of the "official symbol version". So, glassy look for now etc...
(02:32:59 PM) igrammenidis: Or else it might look to different
(02:33:43 PM) rosana_a: we can discuss that with the distros
(02:34:28 PM) igrammenidis: Do you mean to set up together with them a specific distro guideline?
(02:35:03 PM) rosana_a: that's actually complicated
(02:35:04 PM) igrammenidis: With the major distributions
(02:35:11 PM) rosana_a: we can think about it
(02:35:38 PM) rosana_a: but would it be ok to propose: same shape, same color and exceptions for linux distros?
(02:36:00 PM) igrammenidis: +1
(02:37:02 PM) ivantm: +1
(02:37:05 PM) rosana_a: ok
(02:37:23 PM) rosana_a: should we move to the next topic: black and whote logo
(02:37:43 PM) igrammenidis: ok
(02:37:47 PM) rosana_a: you think is necessary, or we just leave it to the b/w printers to decide?
(02:38:52 PM) igrammenidis: then you would get a greyscale version of the logo, this could look very different on each printer. To provide a b/w version is more simple
(02:39:06 PM) rosana_a: ok
(02:39:11 PM) ivantm: +1
(02:39:14 PM) rosana_a: +1
(02:39:51 PM) rosana_a: next topic: OOo logos seasonal guidelines
(02:40:46 PM) rosana_a: I posted a proposal
(02:41:22 PM) rosana_a: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Branding_Initiative/branding_guidelines_draft#Proposal_for_Conference_and_seasonal_Logos
(02:41:28 PM) igrammenidis: I really like it. I think it's useful and very consistent. We can use it as well for the ooo extension website
(02:41:44 PM) igrammenidis: they use that yellow symbol
(02:42:08 PM) igrammenidis: http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/
(02:42:24 PM) rosana_a: I think it doesn't have to be exactly this proposal, but the idea is to give the white space and a place where community members can be creative without any rules, just witha frame
(02:43:42 PM) stx12: i like it too but there are other proposals we should have a look at.
(02:44:02 PM) stx12: the one with the horizontal line looks good to me too
(02:44:09 PM) rosana_a: of course, I think other proposals can come, I just think that ot makes sense to have a frame as part of the proposal
(02:44:48 PM) stx12: yes, agreed; i just wanted to maek sure that we have seen other aproaches.
(02:44:57 PM) igrammenidis: I'm in favour of a combination of both.
(02:45:36 PM) stx12: the horiznotal line for examples reminds me too much of uses i know from oracle
(02:45:54 PM) ivantm: +1 from me too... but probably starting from next year since the 2010 material is already set
(02:46:17 PM) rosana_a: right
(02:46:27 PM) rosana_a: Bernhard also made a proposal: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:BeDipp#personal_sandbox
(02:46:45 PM) igrammenidis: It's better to keep the brand independent then.
(02:46:49 PM) stx12: rosana_a: yes, that's what i was talking about
(02:46:52 PM) rosana_a: I think we can think about it, I just would glad to see a frame
(02:47:00 PM) rosana_a: I wanted to post the proposal here as well
(02:47:59 PM) stx12: rosana_a: i really like the frame as it is described in the draft guidelines
(02:48:00 PM) stx12: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Branding_Initiative/branding_guidelines_draft#Proposal_for_Conference_and_seasonal_Logos
(02:48:43 PM) rosana_a: would it be ok to ask for more proposals, but with a "frame"?
(02:48:49 PM) stx12: is the "creative area" a cricle by intend? or could the quadrant be used?
(02:49:20 PM) igrammenidis: I'm in favour of the circle. It represent the "O" of Openness
(02:49:54 PM) rosana_a: I think the "creative area" can look different, we can see different proposald
(02:50:29 PM) igrammenidis: There are some other aspects as well like fonts and secondary colours.
(02:50:39 PM) rosana_a: exactly
(02:50:52 PM) rosana_a: but a frame could serve as a guideline
(02:51:07 PM) igrammenidis: indeed
(02:52:27 PM) rosana_a: should we ask for more proposals that come within a frame?
(02:53:39 PM) igrammenidis: Perhaps it would be better to define the secondary font first. That will be easier to compare the different proposals
(02:53:48 PM) ivantm: I agree - this isn't as urgent as the general logo guidelines
(02:53:55 PM) rosana_a: ok
(02:54:10 PM) rosana_a: great, next topic: logo rotation:
(02:54:29 PM) rosana_a: I don't see a good reason for rotating the logo
(02:55:20 PM) igrammenidis: I'm against it, I have seen some beautiful designs with a rotated logo (in general) but also some very bad ones. When you put a frame around the logo and rotate it, it will look like an ugly post stamp
(02:56:02 PM) ivantm: wouldn't there be a guideline against putting frames around the logo?
(02:56:17 PM) igrammenidis: If you respect the whitespace?
(02:57:47 PM) stx12: so we forbid rotation - framed or not.
(02:57:57 PM) rosana_a: maybe we have a misunderstanding, when I was talking about a "frame" I was referring to this way of showing what is allowed: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:Logo_OOo_extended_space.png
(02:58:15 PM) rosana_a: stx12: I agree
(02:59:21 PM) igrammenidis: yes, that's clear. The frame for the rotated logo that I mean is in literal sense. (a square or four lines)
(02:59:35 PM) stx12: rosana_a: yes, that's what i was refering to when i asked about the circle for the creative area...
(03:00:27 PM) rosana_a: ok, so can we say: logo rotation is not allowed?
(03:00:34 PM) igrammenidis: yes
(03:00:39 PM) stx12: igrammenidis: and this is where wee seem to agree that we could avoid the rotation and have to accept a frame ourside of the white space.
(03:00:46 PM) stx12: rosana_a: yes
(03:01:04 PM) igrammenidis: stx 12: i agree
(03:02:48 PM) ivantm: i'm a bit confused - so you're saying no logo rotation whatsoever?
(03:03:30 PM) stx12: ivantm: correct
(03:03:54 PM) igrammenidis: exactly
(03:04:45 PM) igrammenidis: but stx12 also suggests to allow a frame (four lines, so in literal sense) around the logo as long as the minimum whitespace is respected. Correct?
(03:05:12 PM) ivantm: ok... if there is too much potential for bad use, then it's probably best to say no rotation
(03:05:30 PM) stx12: i would discourage this and phrase it like display in a way that doesn't distract from the logo
(03:05:42 PM) stx12: but we can't forbid it
(03:06:05 PM) stx12: i mean the 4 lines frame
(03:06:13 PM) igrammenidis: Ok, that makes more sense
(03:06:40 PM) rosana_a: next topic
(03:06:55 PM) rosana_a: official logo and native language projects
(03:07:24 PM) rosana_a: do you think we need there guidelines like with the seasonal logos?
(03:08:04 PM) rosana_a: rafaella: do you have any preferences for the branding of native language projects?
(03:10:02 PM) rosana_a: anyone else?
(03:10:08 PM) igrammenidis: I suggest to just allow to put sr. / nl. / fr. in front of the logo, but then in a lighter or perhaps secondary color like silver (light) grey.
(03:10:10 PM) igrammenidis: Or perhaps just add the language under the logo like the conference logo. (Or maybe a combination of both)
(03:10:13 PM) rafaella: well ... I think that the important thing is that it's consistent...
(03:11:10 PM) stx12: rafaella: i understand our interest; but wouldn't nlcs like to be creative?
(03:11:11 PM) rafaella: rosana_a: do you have any siggestions?
(03:11:19 PM) rosana_a: igrammenidis: I don't think it is a goos idea to change the logo for each project
(03:11:42 PM) rafaella: consistency it doesn't mean that you can't be creative...
(03:11:47 PM) rosana_a: my suggestions would be to ask the nlc to use logo and symbol and the have their own design
(03:12:03 PM) rosana_a: they can also get inspired by the main website
(03:12:11 PM) rafaella: Like in the example with the frame we could could be consistent and have a free area for creativity
(03:13:09 PM) rafaella: rosana_a: yes, they can be insipred but I think that it would be good to still have some rules so that it's not only an inspiration...
(03:13:33 PM) stx12: rafaella: that makes sense - do you have a gut feeling whether this would be adopted?
(03:15:02 PM) rafaella: yes, I think so...
(03:15:42 PM) rosana_a: ok, would you agree on asking nlc project to use the official logo and symbol, but to work together on ideas to look more consistent?
(03:16:09 PM) rafaella: rosana_a: sorry my ignorance: is there already a proposal for the website with the new logo and symbol?
(03:17:03 PM) rosana_a: rafaella: ivantm is working on updateing the logo on the current website, the redesign discussion is taking place
(03:17:50 PM) rafaella: is there anything like a draft that I can see?
(03:17:56 PM) ivantm: yes, the changes at this stage are only happening to the header of the website
(03:18:17 PM) ivantm:
(03:19:21 PM) stx12: and the symbol is in place as favicon
(03:20:06 PM) ivantm: ah yes, that too... small but important :)
(03:20:21 PM) rosana_a: :)
(03:20:23 PM) rafaella: thanks! I think that we should take into consideration how this can be applied to the various projects .... I think that we should have a creativity frame
(03:20:37 PM) rosana_a: that's a good point
(03:21:44 PM) rosana_a: so, would be ok to say to the nlc: use official logo and symbol and work together on a common frame for consistent branding?
(03:22:40 PM) stx12: ... which leaves room for individual project's creativity...
(03:23:06 PM) rosana_a: exactly
(03:23:39 PM) rafaella: yes ... because actually , this is something that affects all OOo projects ... not only nlc
(03:23:53 PM) igrammenidis: does this means that each NLC project can still have their own complete different design of frontpage?
(03:25:12 PM) igrammenidis: I'm sorry to jump through different topics, but they seem to relate somehow
(03:25:36 PM) stx12: i don't think we are talking specifically about the web page. more logo usage in nlc branding
(03:26:00 PM) igrammenidis: But the NLC branding will be the most visable on the webpage
(03:26:03 PM) stx12: but yes, the font page is the most prominent place where it is displayed.
(03:26:26 PM) ***stx12 sees we have the same idea ;-)
(03:26:51 PM) rafaella: igrammenidis: actually not: I was thinking that we have a website template with a frame. Within the frame each project decides how to express their *project*
(03:27:17 PM) stx12: we just should coun't on more or less flexibility of the website framework.
(03:27:52 PM) rosana_a: ok
(03:28:00 PM) rosana_a: so let's see there's 2 points
(03:28:27 PM) rosana_a: 1. logo and symbol use: we don't want nlc to adapt them but rather to use the official
(03:28:49 PM) igrammenidis: I still think that NLC projects wants to differentiate themselves from the International community. There should be space to do so, and not by simple having a different frontpage for each NLC project. I think each NLC projects should have the ability to place their native language project name under the logo. A little bit like the conference logo. It is also easier to see for people if they are on the international website or the logo, wiki,
(03:28:51 PM) igrammenidis: extension site etc...
(03:29:49 PM) rosana_a: igrammenidis: I understand your point, but that would leave to a lot of different OOo logos
(03:29:50 PM) igrammenidis: In case of the NLC projects, I think that all languages should have a consistent front page and the same structure of navigation. All other projects can have more room for creativity. So a better framework for the NLC projects are necessary
(03:30:16 PM) rosana_a: I think a NLC can express its identity without changing the OOo logo
(03:31:40 PM) rafaella: rosana_a: I agree. The OOo Logo should be the common denominator
(03:31:54 PM) rosana_a: Logo and symbol are the only two things that would be the same
(03:31:56 PM) igrammenidis: Rosana, I understand your concern about to many logo's. But people should at least know in which language they are watching the website. A small reference near the logo of the language is important. Perhaps not with too many changes to the logo. It could be done like it is now on the wiki. Just add "|" to seperate
(03:32:37 PM) rosana_a: igrammenidis: I undertand, but I'd say that if you respect the white space anything is possible
(03:33:00 PM) igrammenidis: Ok, we are on the same page now ;)
(03:33:01 PM) stx12: just have a look: http://de.openoffice.org/ http://fr.openoffice.org/
(03:33:11 PM) rosana_a: ok great
(03:33:34 PM) rosana_a: so I think that the creation of a frame is a good idea, we can ask for proposals on the branding list
(03:34:12 PM) rosana_a: I have to leave, but we can continue the discussion on Wednesday
(03:34:34 PM) rosana_a: I will post the log and the conclusions
(03:34:46 PM) igrammenidis: They look very different and uses a different colour palette. I also suggested something for the dutch project a while ago. I'll post it on the list
(03:35:38 PM) igrammenidis: Talk to you later. I have to leave as well.
(03:35:41 PM) igrammenidis: Bye
(03:35:59 PM) rafaella: Bye!
(03:36:01 PM) stx12: bye igrammenidis, bye rosana_a
(03:36:02 PM) ivantm: ok, bye all
(03:36:11 PM) igrammenidis left the room.